Okay, so opponent says that I agreed for next fight to be Orc's and Goblin's.
It took me a little bit to reorganize my thoughts as I REALLY wanted to stomp his WoC.
Anyways, so fine. Time to go green.
This is what I reckon:
Slann: Becalming Cogitation, Harmonic Convergence, Focus of Mystery, Channeling Staff, Ironcurse Icon, BSB, Banner of Discipline
With 21 TG with a Revered Guardian with Fencers Blades
OB: CO, GW, Talisman of Preservation, Stegadon Helm
2 x Skink Priests (Level 1)
Gor-Rok
Saurus x 24
SV: GW, Armour of Destiny
Saurus x 23
Skink Skirmishers: 3 x 10
Chameleon Skinks: 2 x 5
Ancient Stegs with Giant Blowpipe x 2
Salamanders x 2
-
My idea is decked out Slann with HM so he is flexible for what my opponent fields.
Lots of things to induce leadership tests (CO and Salamanders for Fear, Stegs for Terror, also panic tests for anyone flamed by Salamanders)
Skinks and Cham Skinks for Giant and/or Night Goblins with Fanatics.
Giant Stegs to blowpipe the s**t out of things.
Keep the TG and both Sauri regiments back. Every shooter gets in range and then shoots, while moving back.
OB on CO to rush to help anyone in trouble.
-
I have played this guy with Orcs and Goblin's before. He did Snotling Pump Wagons, Giant, Savage Orcs, Black Orcs, Squig herd, spear chukkas, lots of Goblins with fanatics, Trolls.
I think that my list above would cover any eventualities from the above...
-
Would appreciate any input from the heavy hitters:
That's illegal. Revered Guardians are capped at 25 points for their magic weapons. I would recommend giving your Revered Guardian a 5 point or a 10 point magic weapon. The Warrior Bane is pretty solid for potentially docking enemy monsters some attacks.
Give the Temple Guard the Banner of Eternal Flame. It's pretty cheap and is great for dominating trolls. River Trolls are arguably among the best anti-Lizardmen unit that the Orcs and Goblins have.
A few more Temple Guard would not be amiss. I would recommend giving your Skink priests the Lore of Heavens. If you can roll one of the lightning spells, that's great. If not, Iceshard Blizzard is handy for reducing damage from Rock Lobbers and Doom Divers. Rocker Lobbers and Doom Divers are arguably among the best anti-Lizardmen units that Orcs and Goblins have.
Given the danger of rock lobbers and doom divers, I would consider putting your Old One on foot. With the base save, Stegadon helm, and light armor that's a 2+ save. not quite as good as 1+ but it gives you a modicum of protection from artillery.
Lots of Skinks are good. Skinks are pretty good at shooting Snotling pump wagons, giants, Mangler Squigs and more.
Salamanders are great at killing goblins and okay at killing orcs. Skinks are good are good at protecting Salamanders.
Shorthand.
Goblin Cavalry: Goblin Wolf Riders, Goblin Spider Riders
Orc Cavalry: Orc Boar Boyz, Savage Orc Boar Boyz
Regular Orcs: Orc Boyz, Orc Arrer Boyz, Savage Orcs
Elite Orcs: Big Boyz, Black Orcs, Orc Boar Cavalry, Savage Orc Boar Cavalry.
All Trolls: Trolls, River Trolls, Stone Trolls
Chariots: Snotling Pump Wagon, Goblin Wolf Chariot, Orc Boar Chariot
All Squigs: Mangler Squigs, Goblin Squig Hoppers, Goblin Squig Herders
Snotling Swarms
Counter: Nothing
Countered by: The entire Lizardmen army
Saurus Warriors
Counter: Goblin Infantry, Goblin Cavalry, Regular Orcs, Obliterated by: Arachnarok Spider
Countered by: All Chariots, Orc Rock Lobber, All Trolls, All Squigs, Giants, Doom Diver Catapult, Orc Cavalry Worthy Foes: Savage Orcs, Orc Big Boyz, Black Orcs
Cohort Skinks
Counter (via tarpit): Elite orcs, all trolls, Arachnarok spiders
Counter (via redirection): Orc Cavalry, Goblin Wolf Chariots, Orc Boar Chariots
Countered by: Night Goblins, Goblin Cavalry, Anything that can force a fair fight. Special Circumstances: A unit of Cohort Skinks inside a building can fend off much stronger foes for a surprisingly long time and will utterly humiliate any cavalry.
Skink Skirmishers
Counter: Squigs, Goblin Cavalry in units of 10 or less, Snotling Pump Wagons, Giants, war machines (sort of)
Counter (via redirection): Any infantry,
Countered by: Stone Trolls, Orc Cavalry, Goblin Wolf Chariots, Orc Boar Chariots, Arachnaroks Worthy Foes: Goblin Cavalry in units of 10 or more. Night Goblin Fanatics
Jungle Swarms
Counter: Elite orcs (when fielded as redirector)
Countered By: Orc Arrer Boyz, Chariots, Goblin archers Special Circumstances: A supporting attack by a Jungle Swarm bestowing poisoned attacks will provide enough positive bonus to roughly counteract the kill count an O&G character bestows on its side.
Chameleon Skinks
Counter: All war machines, Snotling Pump Wagons, Squigs, Giants, Savage Orc Boar Boyz (sort of)
Countered by: Orc Boar Boyz, Goblin Wolf Chariots, Orc boar Chariots Worthy Foes: Goblin Cavalry, Night Goblin Fanatics, Doom Divers
Terradons
Counter: Goblin Rock Lobbers, Snotling Pump Wagons, Squigs, Giants (sort of)
Counter (via redirection): Any infantry, Any cavalry (sort of)
Countered by: Orc Arrer Boys, Night Goblin archers Worthy Foes: Spear Chukkas, Doom Divers
Ripperdactyls
Counter: Goblin Rock Lobbers, All chariots, Pump Wagons, Squigs, Goblin Cavalry,
Countered by: Orc Arrer Boys, Night Goblin archers Worthy Foes: Spear Chukkas, Doom Divers, Orc Cavalry
Stegadons and Ancient Stegadons
Counter: Regular orcs, all chariots, Giants
Countered by: River Trolls, Goblin Rock Lobbers Worthy Foes: Elite orcs, goblin infantry (in tarpit formation), Arachnaroks (Stegadon probably wins if they get the charge, they will probably lose if they don’t)
Carnosaurs
Counter: Arachnarok, Giants, all Chariots, orc characters, orc cavalry (sort of), Stone Trolls
Countered by: Goblin Infantry (tarpits), Goblin Rock Lobber, Doom Divers, Spear Chukkas (sort of) Worthy Foes: River Trolls, elite orcs
Bastilodons, Ark of Sotek
Counter: Goblin infantry, especially tarpits
Countered by: Elite orcs, all war machines, Giants and Arachnaroks (sort of) Worthy Foes: Regular Orcs, Trolls
Bastilodons, Solar Engine
Counter: Squigs, fast cavalry, Chariots (sort of)
Countered by: Elite orcs, all war machines, Giants and Arachnaroks (sort of)
Our regular Saurus can go toe-to-toe with Orc and Goblin elite infantry. Our Temple Guard outclass their elite infantry.
Goblins, point for point will beat Skinks in a straight fight, but Skinks are faster than them, shoot better, and panic less often.
If this was all the Orc and Goblin army had, every match would fall in the Lizardmen’s favor. But Orcs and Goblins have a plethora of cheap characters.
An Orc Oldblood can beat an Orc Warboss is a straight fight, but Orc and Goblin characters are CHEAP. Even if we play without a Slann, we cannot field as many fighting characters as the O&G can.
It is feasible for an Orc and Goblin player to put a fighting character into every infantry and cavalry block. We cannot really do this. An infantry or cavalry block with a moderately kitted out fighting character moves up a level.
An Goblin character will not seriously cause a serious problem for Saurus Warriors but it can adjust things when combined with a massive numbers advantage and all the other stuff Goblins use, (netters, knife skulkers, fanatics, supporting flank charges)
Saurus Warriors fighting just the enemy
Counter: Goblin Cavalry, Regular Orcs Obliterated by: Arachnarok Spider
Countered by: All Chariots, Orc Rock Lobber, All Trolls, All Squigs, Giants, Doom Diver Catapult, Orc Cavalry Worthy Foes: Goblins Infantry, Savage Orcs, Orc Big Boyz, Black Orcs
Saurus Warriors fighting an army where every unit has a fighting character
Counter: Goblins Infantry, Goblin Cavalry Obliterated by: Arachnarok Spider, Orc Cavalry
Countered by: All Chariots, Orc Rock Lobber, All Trolls, All Squigs, Giants, Doom Diver Catapult, Savage Orcs, Orc Big Boyz, Black Orcs Worthy Foes: Regular Orcs
Orc and Goblins have more army options than most, so it’s harder to guess what your opponent is going to do, some favor orcs, some favor goblins, some favor war machines, some favor monsters.
Point for point, Night Goblins are clearly more effective than Goblins, especially for tarpits. Night Goblin archers are clearly more effective than Orc Arrer boys. It is very common to see armies with small chaff units of Night Goblin archers and really large tarpits of Night Goblin spearmen. The upgrades for Night Goblin Netters and Fanatics are very cheap for what they do though occasionally you see archer chaff blocks without these upgrades.
Savage Orcs are clearly more effective than Orc Boyz. Savage Orc boar riders are clearly more effective than Orc Boar Riders. Most armies will field a very large group of Savage Orc Big Boyz either on foot or on boars and they will put their army general or BSB in said unit.
River trolls are clearly more effective than all other trolls, especially when fighting Lizardmen given our relatively low Weapon Skill stats.
Goblin wolf riders are generally viewed as more effective than spider riders, but I think spider riders are overvalued slightly, especially against Lizardmen.
Arachnaroks are better than Giants, at least against Lizardmen. Giants are very vulnerable to Skink shooting and Arachnaroks are nigh imperious to it. We can still counter an Arachanrok with Saurus cowboys, Carnosaurs and Kroxigor but these very same units can also carve up giants.
Okay so most competitive armies are built on the backs of Savage Orcs and Night Goblins for the bulk of their bodies. It maybe infantry based or it may be a combined arms approach between Cavalry and Infantry. It’s up to player preference whether they lean towards monsters or artillery as their favorite backup.
Most armies take a few Squigs or Night Goblin fanatics. You need to dedicate some of your Skirmishers to eradicate these before going after their monsters and war machines or you will regret your decision to ignore these threats. Mangler Squigs seem to easily be the most popular Squig unit in the game.
One thing I noticed is that most Orc and Goblin players have a healthy laisses faire attitude towards Animosity. That means surprisingly few people bother with Black Orcs. When you do see Black Orcs, Grimgor is more often than not the army general.
There are exceptions to this rule, but most Orc and Goblin players don’t bother with a lot of wizards, especially if they are planning to fight Lizardmen.
If I was planning an anti-Lizardmen list I would fill my Core with Night Goblins, Goblin Spider Riders, and Savage Orc Big Boyz. I would take as many Arachnaroks as I can afford. I’d put a fighting character in every non-chaff unit. I’d take some Rock Lobbers or Doom Divers. Any points left, I’ll get Orc Boar Chariots and Savage Orc Boar Cavalry or put my general on a Wyvern.
Of course, I would also take the Lore of Undeath if possible (what else is new?), but I think it would synergize well with the Orc and Goblin army. That I’m not super impressed with the O&G base lores.
From experience: Never get your stegos in combat with a giant, the only exception is if you have a high chance of killing it on impact; With that said I think you have plenty of shooting that's effective against it, so it can go down very quickly.
Walk Between Worlds is neat for nullifying fanatics, since you don't take any damage when ethereal and they will die on impact.
The Black Orcs might be a fine choice to cast Fiery Convocation, if the unit is big enough; Also if you cast Tempest on Goblins it might even do some nice damage.
The guy in my group that plays Orcs and Goblins almost always take a few very powerful magic items, if your friend does the same then Arcane unforging is golden.
If he has a horde of savage orcs that could be dangerous to your saurus, but if you can whittle them down before combat you should be fine, and they should take wounds quite quick as they basically have no armor (although they could have a decent ward save of Wurrzag is around).
To my recollection, I have never lost to Orcs and Goblins. I usually lose to Warriors of Chaos.
In some ways I think Orcs and Goblins is easy mode for Lizardmen. That said, let's crush them!
That's illegal. Revered Guardians are capped at 25 points for their magic weapons. I would recommend giving your Revered Guardian a 5 point or a 10 point magic weapon. The Warrior Bane is pretty solid for potentially docking enemy monsters some attacks.
Give the Temple Guard the Banner of Eternal Flame. It's pretty cheap and is great for dominating trolls. River Trolls are arguably among the best anti-Lizardmen unit that the Orcs and Goblins have.
A few more Temple Guard would not be amiss. I would recommend giving your Skink priests the Lore of Heavens. If you can roll one of the lightning spells, that's great. If not, Iceshard Blizzard is handy for reducing damage from Rock Lobbers and Doom Divers. Rocker Lobbers and Doom Divers are arguably among the best anti-Lizardmen units that Orcs and Goblins have.
Given the danger of rock lobbers and doom divers, I would consider putting your Old One on foot. With the base save, Stegadon helm, and light armor that's a 2+ save. not quite as good as 1+ but it gives you a modicum of protection from artillery.
Lots of Skinks are good. Skinks are pretty good at shooting Snotling pump wagons, giants, Mangler Squigs and more.
Salamanders are great at killing goblins and okay at killing orcs. Skinks are good are good at protecting Salamanders.
From experience: Never get your stegos in combat with a giant, the only exception is if you have a high chance of killing it on impact; With that said I think you have plenty of shooting that's effective against it, so it can go down very quickly.
Walk Between Worlds is neat for nullifying fanatics, since you don't take any damage when ethereal and they will die on impact.
The Black Orcs might be a fine choice to cast Fiery Convocation, if the unit is big enough; Also if you cast Tempest on Goblins it might even do some nice damage.
The guy in my group that plays Orcs and Goblins almost always take a few very powerful magic items, if your friend does the same then Arcane unforging is golden.
If he has a horde of savage orcs that could be dangerous to your saurus, but if you can whittle them down before combat you should be fine, and they should take wounds quite quick as they basically have no armor (although they could have a decent ward save of Wurrzag is around).
Haven't got much to input here as what you've chosen is generally pretty good against Greenskins.
2 Saurus blocks and a Temple Guard unit are a solid counter to any infantry and regular cavalry they may have, so that's a good start as that will put pressure on your opponent right from the outset. Salamanders are nice against Goblin hordes and I notice you've gone magic heavy, so that'll help ensure you get your buffs on your units and debuffs on them just to make sure your Saurus win the ensuing scrum
The only thing I would say is that is it really be necessary to have 3 units of 10 Skink Skirmishers AND 2 units of 5 Chameleon Skinks (given that your opponent will most likely bring only a single Giant, if that, and only two bigger units of Night Goblins with Fanatics rather than a larger number of smaller ones, as well as the fact that you've got two Ancient Stegadons with Blowpipes that can take out those same units anyway)?
I'm worried you haven't got anything to counter Arachnaroks (which have a good armour save and 8 wounds to help last longer against blowpipe shooting), so I'd say you'd need a Carnosaur to help out here (especially as Greenskins don't have cannons). I'd say sub out one of your Stegs and a Skink unit or two for one, which would serve as a better mount for your Oldblood given that he isn't in a Saurus Cavalry bus according to your list, so that you still have one Steg and a smattering of Skink units.
The only thing I would say is that is it really be necessary to have 3 units of 10 Skink Skirmishers AND 2 units of 5 Chameleon Skinks (given that your opponent will most likely bring only a single Giant, if that, and only two bigger units of Night Goblins with Fanatics rather than a larger number of smaller ones, as well as the fact that you've got two Ancient Stegadons with Blowpipes that can take out those same units anyway)?
I'm worried you haven't got anything to counter Arachnaroks (which have a good armour save and 8 wounds to help last longer against blowpipe shooting), so I'd say you'd need a Carnosaur to help out here (especially as Greenskins don't have cannons). I'd say sub out one of your Stegs and a Skink unit or two for one, which would serve as a better mount for your Oldblood given that he isn't in a Saurus Cavalry bus according to your list, so that you still have one Steg and a smattering of Skink units.
I agree Arachnaroks are a dangerous monster. I haven't thought of them much. I have a good friend who has lots of Orcs and Goblins but no Arachnaroks and he doesn't like spider riders. I believe it's largely aesthetic. He doesn't want to spend all that time painting a spider.
Arachnaroks are not invincible but they cost 290 points and it takes more than 290 points of Lizardmen to bring them down. If you see an Arachnarok, I would advise swapping out spells on your Focus of Mystery Slann ASAP. Spirit Leech and Searing Doom probably won't take down an Arachnarok but it will soften one up to let you take it down with Skink shooting or massed ranks of Sauri.
Unless you use Kroxigor. 4-6 Kroxigor can probably take down an Arachnarok without support and walk away with half your Kroxigor alive.
The problem is that while Kroxigor are great at taking out the support monsters of the Orcs and Goblins army, they are not very good at fighting literal orcs and goblins.
I guess that's what Walk Between Worlds is for. On the other hand, any experienced opponent will usually prioritize Walk Between Worlds as the number one spell to dispell. I rarely get this spell cast successfully, but that's not a bad thing. This frees me up to two-dice magic missile spells with impunity.
I happen to know my friend doesn't have any Arachnarok Spiders (thank F for that) and after one Skink skirmisher unit carved up his Chaos Giant in our last WoC matchup, I think it unlikely to make an appearance.
I've been looking over his army list and I'm thinking several Night Goblin units with fanatics, several snotling pump wagons and spear chukkas (literally why not, they're so cheap) and then a mixture of orc units. I know he has large Squig and spider rider units.
So I'm thinking that I will be outnumbered 2-1 type of thing. Meaning he will finish deploying way after me and will position those units vunerable to the Skinks far away from them.
I figure if I have at least two Cham Skinks then I can deploy them last to plug a hole so to speak.
I'm expecting a trolls unit so will get the flaming banner for sure.
The Carnosaur really didn't impress me in the WoC match-up and he'll be firing all three or four Speak Chukkas at him every turn. Bound to get a bit at some point with a D3 wounds thing seems dangerous.
Has anyone tried using Kroq-Gar and Grymlok? His spear (1 wound equals 2 for combat resolution) and Grymlok with a 5++ save seems quite inviting againsts orcs and goblins,.... just a LOT of points.
Has anyone tried using Kroq-Gar and Grymlok? His spear (1 wound equals 2 for combat resolution) and Grymlok with a 5++ save seems quite inviting againsts orcs and goblins,.... just a LOT of points.
I think he is meant for undead and daemons where his extra combat resolution helps him, and where he won't suffer from Grymloq not having Bloodroar.
Against Orcs and Goblins I think I'd always take bloodroar on a Carnosaur.
So, been thinking about the Spear Chukka's. He's bound to have maximum six of them... meaning even at 5's or 6's to hit he's bout to get a lucky shot at a Steg or Unit...
I'm thinking about getting at least one Terradon unit to go F them up... Maybe have t pass within
I would ad to that that you can just build a better Carno rider yourself for less points, nothing in his kit really stands out.
List looks good, I would just add more TG instead of one or maybe two of the priests. You intend to use them as Vassals? If you do, your probably only will use one, if at all.
Okay, thanks everyone for chipping in on this. Very helpful.
On magic, I've been reading a bunch of @Scalenex 's threads on building armies around lores, which are best for what, etc.
I think High Magic isn't going to do me any favors here.
Apart from a Giant, I don't think I'll be seeing any big monsters. I think I'll mostly be confronted with a LOT of troops, Squigs, Manglers, etc.
He'll know that I've got a bunch of shooty type stuff, so he'll move in and try to surround each of my units. I don't have the troops to prevent that so it seems like I need to use skinks and Salamanders to attack his flanks, while I keep the Stegs, 2 Sauri blocks and the TG in the middle, keeping them back a bit so that the giant Blowpipes, Cham Skinks and Terradon unit have a chance to thin the herd before we get into combat.
And then... magic. I'm tempted to do wandering deliberations as it's quite the toolbox. High Magic has the movement, WS increase and the nuke spell though...
Any suggestions?
I openly admit that I may be overthinking this. I also openly admit that I do like a good chew on a) making my army list and b) coming up with a good plan for my army list.
I will also admit it helps me with the periods when I can't play due to time and lack of opponents. So thanks for helping me out with this.
Yes, you are overthinking this. A general all comers list is usually pretty solid against Orcs and Goblins. It's not necessary to tailor a specific anti-greenskin list.
Though I will admit it's fun to make hypothetical lists that will probably not be played.
When I make a hypothetical list I tend to tailor it around a single unorthodox choice and then build the rest of the list to make up for the unorthodox choice.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
