8th Ed. LIZARD-Hammer (building on 8TH-hammer)

[n810]

That seems like too much deflection when the deflection is denominated in inches.

For cannon, I think short range Is like 2' and long is like 4'. (or maybe it was more like 4' & 8')

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

+4 ward save MAX for anyone (sorry WOC and HE)

My 3++ (re-rolling 1's) disc riding Chaos lord does not like this!

razordon have either armor piercing or BS4

I like it

Ripperdactyls gain ASF against units that have blot toads

Too strong in my opinion

Saurus are weaponskill 4 and bring back sacred spawnings!

I'd be happy with just the reintroduction of sacred spawnings. WS4 could be one of those spawning options

 

[pendrake]

What if we were to change the miscast table so that it took into account how many power dice were used to cast the spell. The miscast table would still range from 2-12, but instead of rolling 2d6, the miscasting player would roll just a single d6 and add 1 for each power dice used to cast the spell. In addition, the table would be reshuffled so that the worst results would be found at the larger number values. I figure more power dice = more risk = worse consequences. It would definitely penalize those players 6 dicing spells!

http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/lizzardhammer.16579/page-2#post-135019

You and @hdctambien are on the same page.

 

[pendrake]

The kill-everything spells are the balance against deathstars. They are crowd control. It is dangerous to put all your points into a mega unit because a single spell could kill almost all of them.

There are two problems with this apart from the characters issue:

• those two (or 3?) spells are only available to some armies
• they are an all-or-nothing form of crowd control -- the game should not hinge on one dice roll...

 

[Pinktaco]

My 3++ (re-rolling 1's) disc riding Chaos lord does not like this!

I like it

Too strong in my opinion

I'd be happy with just the reintroduction of sacred spawnings. WS4 could be one of those spawning options

Spawns wouldn't be needed considering how we got most of those buffs over the years anyway.

 

[Pinktaco]

I'd like to see purple sun be a str/toughness test instead.
Fix LOS. Kings of War has an amazingly simple ruleset for this. I'm tired of people shooting their cannons through their own units.
distruption breaks steadfast
monsters cause distruption when engaged in the flank or rear
+4 ward save MAX for anyone (sorry WOC and HE) with the exception of wounds caused by fire for the dragonhelm or dragonbane gem
More access to fiery weapons and items
Make the magic phase less random, I enjoyed 7th edition until it was ruined by VC's one-dicing everything.
Better rules for buildings and terrain, make use of these awesome scenery pieces we have.

Some lizardmen changes

razordon have either armor piercing or BS4
Ripperdactyls gain ASF against units that have blot toads
Saurus are weaponskill 4 and bring back sacred spawnings!
Regen 6 on skinks, 5 on saurus and 4 on kroxigors with a points increase for saurus and kroxigors. It'd take a lot of tweaking, but I feel like it'd be more flavorable.

Whatever, sorry, I'm at work and tired so these are probably mostly dumb...

Maybe gain ASF and lose Killing blow?

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

I do think cannons are too precise, but I agree with Scalenex, changing too much might not be the best way to start off. The easiest way to fix it would probably be to raise the points for cannons and lower the points for monsters (because I think most monsters aren't worth their points, like the giant for example, he is utterly marlecht for his point cost )

 

[Scalenex]

I do think cannons are too precise, but I agree with Scalenex, changing too much might not be the best way to start off. The easiest way to fix it would probably be to raise the points for cannons and lower the points for monsters (because I think most monsters aren't worth their points, like the giant for example, he is utterly marlecht for his point cost )

I agree with people who agree with me!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Spawns wouldn't be needed considering how we got most of those buffs over the years anyway.

I guess that's true. I guess I just like the customization aspect of it (perhaps I'm spoiled with my WoC marks).

Maybe gain ASF and lose Killing blow?

That could work!

The easiest way to fix it would probably be to raise the points for cannons and lower the points for monsters

Lowering the costs of monsters would have to be done very carefully. Many armies don't have access to cannons, so we can't reduce the cost of monsters in response to the effectiveness of cannons. However, I do agree with you that there are a fair number of monsters out there that deserve to have a reduction in points... giants, troglodon, slaughterbrute, beastmen monsters, etc.

 

[pendrake]

Lowering the costs of monsters would have to be done very carefully.

I liked the general approach the SwedComp group had suggested: WHF8.1 no points adjustments, WHF8.2 introduction of points adjustments,... and so on.

A careful approach might be to do point adjustments on an annual basis, (kinda the same timing that GW uses for price rises. ) But some kind of set schedule, maybe every six months.

Method: use arbitrary bonus or penalty values as follows:

+ or minus 1 point on Infantry figures
+ or minus 2 points on cavalry figures
+ or minus 3 points on ogres and similar figures
+ or minus 20 points on giants and other huge figures
​

1. Never bump anything up or down more than the standard increments during any one point adjustment cycle.
2. Between adjustment cycles take input from players who get to make a simple overcosted or undercosted vote on each specific model.
3. The point cost moves one increment in the appropriate direction each adjustment cycle.
4. Eventually, the problem models will find their proper point cost when the community is evenly divided on over or under costed.

Don't pay any attention to folks who are certain that more than the standard increment needs making all at once. They might well be right but use the entire playing community to get a consensus and close in on the correct value gradually.
________

LizardHammer
Unrelated Note: I have added more choices (when I see somebody suggesting one) to the name poll and it was set so that you can vote for all the names that you find acceptable.

 

[serbianwolf]

deathstars (or solo insane units like the deamon prince)/ op magic/ miscasts are like a paper/scisors/rock system, every one of them has a possible counter to it.... so this means IMO that changing one of them means u have to change the others or the balance (however realtive it is) will be broken...

i like the idea of limiting terrible miscasts to high dicicng spells, I lost a couple of games by gething the dimensional cascade from 2 dice signature spells, whic can really ruin a game....

 

[Caprasauridae]

@hdctambien had lot of good ideas, I'll give some of my opinions:

The kill-everything spells are the balance against deathstars. They are crowd control. It is dangerous to put all your points into a mega unit because a single spell could kill almost all of them. But, casting that same spell on a smaller unit might not be worth the risk/reward (ie, miscasting could cost you more than you gain from deleting a 200 point unit, but it might be worth it to kill a 600 point unit)

The problem with the big spells is that they give you a 16% (or more) chance of killing characters, which is usually worth it (especially in a game with lots of practically unkillable characters)

There are other ways to fix this same issue in the game that aren't some arbitrary "deathstars aren't allowed" rule and nerfing the #6 spells.

You could allow Look Out Sir rolls to be given to characters that would otherwise by auto-killed by a spell. That gives all characters in a unit a 2+ ward vs them, which is pretty good protection. Also, characters nearby a similar unit get a 4+ ward, but characters riding monsters or going it alone put themselves in a dangerous spot.

This is tough, since armies have such different capabilities and strengths. I think we could move away from any kind of Herohammer. Make characters tough, but in no way unkillable. Age of Sigmar is a bit mixed pack with this: on one hand, it greatly emphasized the role of heroes, but on the other hand, they have lots of wounds, but can be brought down with sufficient force. I do like this. Look out sir saves would make the characters too survivable and penalize the monster riding characters even more. I think only a handful of monsters are worth it to take for a character, and those are the ones we see the most on the table. Balancing the characters would help other monsters to see the battle, as well.

Also, the miscast table should be adjusted so that it is always more dangerous to cast the more expensive spells. The best suggestion I've seen for that is to reorganize the miscast chart so that all the really bad effects are at the top end and the low end are weaker. Then when you roll for miscast you roll 1d6 + X where X is the number of dice you used to cast the spell. So if you throw 6 dice at a spell you miscast will be between 7 and 12, but if you only throw 1 die at a spell, your miscast can only be between 2 and 7.

Maybe the chart looks something like this:

2 wizard can't cast any more.
3-4 casting wizard takes s6 hit.
5 -6 s6 small template. d6 dice are lost.
7 all wizards take S6 hit. d6 dice are lost.
8 -9 s10 small template. d6 dice are lost.
10 - 11 Wizard loses d3 levels and can't cast any more.
12 Big template S10, wizard dies.

Now, throwing 5 or 6 dice at a spell is really risky so it better be worth it to attempt a #6 spell. And the look-out-sir rule removes the viability of the #6 spell to work against characters. BUT, it also gives you the opportunity to trade your wizard (via bad miscast results) to try to kill that unkillable flying character that has a rerollable 1+ save and 3+ ward that rerolls 1's.

This is brilliant! I wish you had made this into another post, so I could have liked it separately!

The other issue with deathstars is character walls. These could be fixed a bit by allowing attacks against non-character models even if you are only in base contact with characters. basically, the targeting rule would change to something like "You can always attack the regular models in a unit you are in contact with, and you can choose to attack a character with any model in base contact with it."

This is also quite simple but very valid point.

Also, the challenge rules need to be fixed a bit. A character on a dragon shouldn't be able to be "broken" because they completely decimated a champion in a challenge. Maybe having challenges only exist as long as both models are alive will fix that. So if a character kills the champion in the challenge at his initiative step, his dragon can still attack/thunderstomp the unit at it's initiative step (and the regular troops could still attack the character/dragon if their initiative step comes after there-is-only-one in the challenge)

Or, maybe a unit's banner/ranks can't be used towards combat resolution if they don't actually fight (ie, if the only actual combat was in the challenge, then only combat resolution generated from the challenge counts towards who wins the combat)

Or maybe, single characters that are in a challenge and win count as stubborn when rolling leadership.

In 40k, the characters in challenge are no longer "immune" to attacks coming from outside the challenge. If the troops have no one else to fight (a Daemon Prince attacking a Necron Overlord with his group of Warriors, for example), the troops can also attack the single assailant (or maybe they can attack it anyway, even if there are other targets. I'm not completely sure). Would this work in Fantasy?

I like the lone challenger who wins the challenge being stubborn or even unbreakable. If combined with the 40k ruling above, the character can still be killed by overwhelming force, but it won't just break because the Skeletons have more ranks...

I'm not really bullish on a rewritten 8th/7th edition working in the long run. 8th really has a lot of issues (lots of them can be fixed, by making the radical change of "only 1 magic item per character" or "remove all the BRB magic items" ... but I don't think anyone is on the same page with me on that) But I think the balance between the #6 spells and hordes is pretty good, as long as the risk or magic is appropriate and the side effect of auto-killing characters is mitigated.

At first I liked the idea of having just one magic item per character, but then I started thinking how unbalanced some armies are with regards to the mundane equipment/other perks. For example, Tomb Kings characters are usually more supporting ones than super-killy. They have no access to Heavy Armor, other than BRB items. They are also one of the few models in the whole game who are extra susceptible to fire (taking two wounds for each unsaved flaming wound), so the 2+ Ward against flaming attacks is a must. My point is, if the amount of magic items would be so severely restricted, more care should be put to balancing the characters across the armies.

And my 2 cents on cannons: Keep everything about cannons the same, except it only deals d6 wounds on the spot that it lands, and anything that is hit by the bounce only gets 1 wound. That way it is still dangerous, but more random (10" from the back of the base is no longer a viable strategy). It still does the same amount of damage to a ranked unit it bounces through (Monstrous Infantry excepted). Also, having the cannon randomize when it hits a rider/mount would be good (however, if you're rewriting things just rewriting all the Monster Mounted units to a single profile would be a better choice)

This sounds good to me. It can still be the monster/super character killer/wounder, but don't just mow everything in it's path. Or maybe change it so that it does d3 wounds after the bounce. This way it would still be useful against Monstrous Cavalry, that are quite problematic in some armies.

I also like @GreenMachine's suggestion about capping the Ward saves to 4+. The armies that can get a better save than that are so few (Sorry, NIGHTBRINGER), and as you can see from this whole post, I'm an advocate of Character Enfeebling Movement.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

Make Slann at least as good as elves at casting High magic. What did GW think when they made the masters of High magic worse at casting it than the pupils

 

[The Sauric Ace]

Make Slann at least as good as elves at casting High magic. What did GW think when they made the masters of High magic worse at casting it than the pupils

I believe something like this:
"Herpdie -derp. ... we like Elves and chaos. What else can we give Elves and or slash chaos, that increase their (un)fairness?
" well how about more potent magic for the Elves! Derp derp. ...now to make age og sigma! It will be the best!"

I'm farly certain I'm not far off

 

[Scalenex]

Here is a proposed 8.1 modication set for Lizardmen and Empire, the two armies I know best. Note I know enough about finance that people are more likely to buy a bond sold at a discount than a premium even if they have the same rate of return. That means it's easier to sell people on making things cheaper than raising the points cost. Unless it's Lizardmen. To get people on other forums to except a L-O sponsored list, we need to be fairly tough on our own. That's why I didn't lower the points cost of Saurus Warriors, Cold One Riders, Carnosaurs, or Chameleon Skinks.

For a similar reason, since cannons are getting the most significant points increases across all armies, armies with cannons need to get more points reductions on the rest of their army. Otherwise Empire, Dwarf, Ogre, and Daemon players will not buy what we are selling.

Lizardmen

Predatory Fighter applies to supporting attacks.

Magic Items
Reduce cost of Horn of Kygor by 10 points.
Reduce the cost of the Jaguar Standard by 15 points
Make it clear that the Sacred Stegadon Helm of Itza and Piranha Blade stack

I’m not going to tackle Special Characters just yet


Slann Mage Priests

Add

Focused Ferocity: Predatory Fighter units joined by a Slann may always test to restrain pursuit as if the Slann were a Skink character. This does not apply to other units within six inches of the Slann. If a Slann gains Fear or Terror, the Slann’s unit is considered to possess Fear or Terror. (Slann special characters get this too.)

Note this will make Harrowing Scrutiny reasonable

Raise cost of Becalming Cognition by 5 points
Reduce Cost of Transcendent Healing by 5 points

Saurus Oldblood
Reduce cost of spear to 3 points.

Saurus Scar Veteran
Reduce cost of spear by 2 points


Skink Chief
Add

Beast Kinship: A Skink Chief mounted on a Terradon may join a unit of Terradon riders. A Skink Chief mounted on a Ripperdactyl may join a unit of Ripperdactyl riders. Mounted Skink Chiefs may not join any other unit.

Saurus Warriors
Add “one unit of Saurus Warriors per army may take a magic standard worth up to 25 points).

Skink Cohort
Unchanged.

Skink Skirmishers
Raise cost of taking Javelins and shields from free to 1 point per model.

Temple Guard
Unchanged

Jungle Swarms
Reduce cost by 5 points per model

Chameleon Skinks
Unchanged

Cold One Riders
Reduce costs of Spear upgrade by 2 points per model
Add may take a Magic Banner worth up to 50 points

Kroxigor
Unchanged

Terradon Riders
Make optional swap to Fireleech bolas free

Stegadon
Unchanged

Bastiladon
Increase costs of Solar Engine by 15 points.

Ancient Stegadon, Salamander Hunting Pack, Razordon Hunting Pack
Unchanged

Troglodon
Reduce cost by 20 points

Empire

I’m not going to tackle Special characters just yet

Reduce cost of Griffon Banner by 10 points
Reduce cost of Mace of Helsturm by 5 points
Reduce cost of the White Cloak of Ulric by 5 points
Reduce cost of Ring of Volans by 5 points

General of the Empire
Reduce cost by 5 points

All other Lords
Unchanged

Master Engineer
Half the cost of all weapon upgrades (since they can’t be used while aiding a warmachine).
Reduce cost of mechanical horse by 5 points

All other Heroes
Unchanged

Halbrediers
Shield upgrades reduced to 0.5 points per model

Spearmen
Shield upgrades reduced to 0.5 points per model

Swordsmen
Cost reduced by 0.5 per model

Crosswbowmen
Cost reduced by 1 point per model

Hangunners
Cost reduced by 1 point per model

Archers
Unchanged

Free Company Militia
Cost reduced by 0.5 per model

Knightly Orders
Unchanged

Great Swords
Unchanged

Demigryph Knights
Increase cost by 7 points per model

Reiksguard Knights
Unchanged

Huntsmen
Reduce cost by 0.5 points per model

Pistoliers
Reduce cost by 2 point per model

Outriders
Reduce cost by 1 point per model

Great Cannon
Raise cost by 25 points per model

Mortar
Reduce cost by 5 points per model

Flagellants
Reduce cost by 1 point per model

Hellblaster Volley Gun
Unchanged

Helstrom Rocket Battery
Reduce cost by 15 points

Steam Tank
Raise cost by 25 points

Celestial Hurricanum
Unchanged

Luminark
Reduce cost by 5 points

 

[The Sauric Ace]

It seems very reasonable that we wouldn't get so much of a decrease in points, since we might gain a little more than usual from the added cost to all cannons. Of course other armies that share same benefit, should also only decrease slightly, in order of making these points fair; this is of course an issue best taken along side all the other inputs, from other armies.

 

[Pinktaco]

Here is a proposed 8.1 modication set for Lizardmen and Empire, the two armies I know best. Note I know enough about finance that people are more likely to buy a bond sold at a discount than a premium even if they have the same rate of return. That means it's easier to sell people on making things cheaper than raising the points cost. Unless it's Lizardmen. To get people on other forums to except a L-O sponsored list, we need to be fairly tough on our own. That's why I didn't lower the points cost of Saurus Warriors, Cold One Riders, Carnosaurs, or Chameleon Skinks.

For a similar reason, since cannons are getting the most significant points increases across all armies, armies with cannons need to get more points reductions on the rest of their army. Otherwise Empire, Dwarf, Ogre, and Daemon players will not buy what we are selling.

Lizardmen

Predatory Fighter applies to supporting attacks.

Magic Items
Reduce cost of Horn of Kygor by 10 points.
Reduce the cost of the Jaguar Standard by 15 points
Make it clear that the Sacred Stegadon Helm of Itza and Piranha Blade stack
Reduce cost of skavenpelt banner to 50pts, add hatred to all skavens attacking the UNIT where the bearer is.

I’m not going to tackle Special Characters just yet


Slann Mage Priests

Add

Focused Ferocity: Predatory Fighter units joined by a Slann may always test to restrain pursuit as if the Slann were a Skink character. This does not apply to other units within six inches of the Slann. If a Slann gains Fear or Terror, the Slann’s unit is considered to possess Fear or Terror. (Slann special characters get this too.)

YES!

Note this will make Harrowing Scrutiny reasonable

Raise cost of Becalming Cognition by 5 points
Reduce Cost of Transcendent Healing by 5 points

Saurus Oldblood
Reduce cost of spear to 3 points.

Saurus Scar Veteran
Reduce cost of spear by 2 points

Not the biggest buff, but definately makes sense

Skink Chief
Add

Beast Kinship: A Skink Chief mounted on a Terradon may join a unit of Terradon riders. A Skink Chief mounted on a Ripperdactyl may join a unit of Ripperdactyl riders. Mounted Skink Chiefs may not join any other unit.

Saurus Warriors
Add “one unit of Saurus Warriors per army may take a magic standard worth up to 25 points).

Much needed

Skink Cohort
Unchanged.

Add "if joined by kroxigors opponents have -1 To Hit when hitting the kroxigors"

Skink Skirmishers
Raise cost of taking Javelins and shields from free to 1 point per model.

Strongly disagree. Skirmishers are good, but why not decrease blowpipes by 1pts instead?

Temple Guard
Unchanged

Jungle Swarms
Reduce cost by 5 points per model
Change back to core

Chameleon Skinks
Unchanged

Cold One Riders
Reduce costs of Spear upgrade by 2 points per model

Add 50pts magic banner

Kroxigor
Unchanged

Terradon Riders
Make optional swap to Fireleech bolas free

Stegadon
Unchanged

Bastiladon
Increase costs of Solar Engine by 15 points.

I disagree. The solardon isn't a must have and increasing points will make it less attractive and do nothing to increase the need to use the ark. I'd be all for having the ark as standard on the solardon at 130pts and switch it with the solar beam for +20pts. Either that or add +1S if you want to increase the cost.

Ancient Stegadon, Salamander Hunting Pack, Razordon Hunting Pack
Unchanged
To be honest I'd rather change Engine of The Gods back to how it used to be OR at the very least let us chose one special rule and buff the ward to 5+.

Troglodon
Reduce cost by 20 points

I realize that you want to go forward slow and safe, but a reduction of 20pts will make no difference at all. The troglodon seriously needs an overhaul way more than anything else. IT DOES NOT WORK AT ALL. Personally I'd give the Oracle skink a better purpose (like having 1 beast and 1 heaven spells, but not the super powerful spells, just decent spells).

My comments are written in red in your quote. They're just suggestions.

Add:

Razordons:
Armour piercing (1).

Chakax:
Increase scaly skink to 4+.
Change 5+ ward to work at all time and not just in challenge.
Reduce price with 50-70pts (he's currently 270pts for a unit that's solely base on challenges and gives unbreakable to a unit that's already "unbreakable".

Kroq-gar:
Change Hand of Gods. We don't need another Shem's Burnings Gaze. Maybe grant ASF?
Increase Grymloqs attack from 5 to 6 OR add frenzy after first wound done by Grymloq like normal carnosaurs so it have 5 attacks + frenzy.
Kroq-gar is a very expensive character and needs something done.

Overall I agree with what you've changed. They're small changes and for the most part good

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

Kroq-gar:
Change Hand of Gods. We don't need another Shem's Burnings Gaze. Maybe grant ASF?
Increase Grymloqs attack from 5 to 6 OR add frenzy after first wound done by Grymloq like normal carnosaurs so it have 5 attacks + frenzy.
Kroq-gar is a very expensive character and needs something done.

Maybe make the spell in the Hand of Gods banishment instead, and make it an innate bound spell (would be wierd if the Hand of the Gods broke)
Maybe give him back the rule where he could take Cold one riders as Core.
Give Grymloq Bloodroar.
He would probably need a little point increase though.

 

[Scalenex]

I definitely agree with the COR magic banner thing. In fact I intended to put that in, the omission was a typo. I'll mull over the other suggestions.

I think Special characters should be done last. By which I mean when EVERY army gets their basic stuff modified, then we tackle all the Special characters as one.

Special characters are polarizing. It's not worth getting potential "buyers" of a L-O sponsored list bent out of shape because of something a special character can or cannot do.

I agree in general that Special Characters should get the lion share of non-points based changes.

I would boost the reduction in Troglodons to 25 points, but I don't think anything should change by more than 25 points (except for Skull Cannons of Khorne), I'd say 50 point cost increase would be conservative.

 

[Pinktaco]

Maybe make the spell in the Hand of Gods banishment instead, and make it an innate bound spell (would be wierd if the Hand of the Gods broke)
Maybe give him back the rule where he could take Cold one riders as Core.
Give Grymloq Bloodroar.
He would probably need a little point increase though.

I can agree to this, although I'd still like frenzy on grymloq haha. Bloodroar would just be more of what we can already get. There's hardly anything special about grymloq, other than a ward.