AoS Won't you spare me over 'til another year?

[Christopher]

I asked this question, or a more specific version of it, in a post in the Seraphon Army Lists subforum, but Tactics seems a more appropriate place, now that I’ve thought about it a bit.

In a sense, my question is a version of one that has plagued humankind since the emergence of consciousness. What can we do about Death?

I’m overstating, of course. I mean, particularly, how can armies with the Seraphon allegiance be competitive with armies with the Death allegiance?

Most of the games of Age of Sigmar I’ve played have been against Death, and I’ve not only never won against them, I don’t feel like I’ve ever even been competitive. If I had to sum up in one word my idea of why that’s so, it would be resilience. Death units have multiple saves from multiple sources. Death units have powers and items that protect them from mortal wounds and that give them healing when destruction seemed to be their fate. Death units Just. Keep. Coming. Back.

It’s never, in my experience, been their offensive capability that’s hindered my Seraphon armies. Instead, it’s the fact that I can’t consistently and, more importantly, permanently remove enemy models from the battlefield. Their synergies are fantastic, stacking bonuses on top of bonuses with saves and resurrections. I just don’t know what to do about it.

Next week, I’m facing a clever Death player who will most likely be fielding Nagash. I have reviewed that warscroll, and I’m not sure there’s a more potent single unit in the game, at least not one I’m familiar with (my experience is admittedly still limited). I plan to field Lord Kroak and summon a Balewind Vortex, but I don’t know whether a Death army led by so powerful a unit will reap the whirlwind the way other armies do.

So this is an invitation to a discussion—a plea for one, really. What tips, tricks, tactics, and strategies would you good people advise? What lists of Seraphon might work best against these opponents?

What, I ask again, can we do about Death?

 

[Crowsfoot]

Take out Nagash game over.

To beat Death you have to take out the heros or you have little chance, teleport, shadowstrike, take allies, SCE prime, strike fast and put him on the back foot.

I have a Death army and they crumble with no hero buffs, play the objective and you can win.

 

[Aginor]

I haven't played my Death army (or against Death) since the new book was released but even before that I noticed that my friend's not very optimized lists of SCE and Orruks weren't able to beat Death.

I plan to play a test game against myself, Deathrattle vs. Seraphon to test a few things but I think that even my mediocre Death list is actually stronger than a few of my good Seraphon lists in some regards.

I still think we have a decent chance to beat Death. Kroaknado or Shadowstrike can snipe heroes. Thunderquake might also work.

In general I think it depends on the mission goals. If it is just "kill everything" we will probably not win. Same against some other armies that are very resilient.

 

[PabloTho]

I may be wrong but I'm not sure if the usual cheese (Kroaknado) will work that well against Nagash. With +3 to unbinding rolls there is a good chance he will just cancel your Balewind Vortex, making Kroak a sitting duck.

I'd go with raw firepower. Two Bastiladons to shoot from range with a Shadowstrike Starhost in the back. Keep a few Razordons handy to mow through skeleton hordes, and screen them with cheap skink chaff units. When the opportunity presents itself, drop the Rippers on Nagash (if the other player is careless, you might even be able to do this first turn). Even with his fat 3+ and 6++ the sheer volume of attacks ought to put a dent in him. Combined with chip damage from the Bastis theres a good chance he'll die.

Another solution might be to simply out-man him. Skeletons are cheap, but skinks are even cheaper and faster. Tie up his battleline with something fat while your skinks dance around scoring early points on objectives.

 

[Joshua Horchler]

My first question whenever I hear people struggling is, how many skinks are you using and are you playing to win the missions or to kill your opponents models? Maybe you would find more success with the Slann/EoTG combo. Kroak is good, but as said above, is vulnerable to dispelling and is immobile. Maybe with more troops and movement you can have more options available to you and play more towards the missions.

 

[Christopher]

Thanks to all who have responded so far, you’ve given me lots to think about.

At this point, I’m unfortunately committed to Lord Kroak and the Balewind Vortex for this week’s game simply because of the models I have built and ready to go. I don’t own an Engine of the Gods, my Slann is still in his box, and I only own one Bastiladon (which is on my list for Thursday’s game).

I suppose what I’ll try to do to get Lord Kroak up on his perch is to try to set it up as efficaciously as possible outside of Nagash’s Unbinding range, which, as far as I know, is still only 18” despite all his terrifying bonuses.

As for the more general questions asked by @Joshua Horchler, I usually run as many Skinks as I can. This week that will be one unit of forty with Boltspitters and Star-Bucklers, all I have built (and painted). And while I still haven’t hit double digits in the number of games of Age of Sigmar I’ve played, I think that you’re onto something with my tactical shortcomings—in the past at least I’ve probably just been trying to kill everything and not playing to objectives. This week’s game is a little different, as the winning condition is whoever controls a single objective at the end of the fifth round wins—there are no points scored in earlier rounds. Which isn’t to say that playing to that objective isn’t something I should be doing from turn one, obviously.

Right now I’m thinking of gunning hard for Nagash early on with my shooting (Skinks, Razordon, Bastiladon, Salamander) and going after the other Heroes in my opponent’s army with Lord Kroak’s spells. That leaves my two units of Saurus Warriors to hunt for the hidden objective (it’s one of six on the board) and try to stay alive. Which leaves the question of what I’ll be doing about his Battlelines of Skeletons and Zombies, I suppose.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Thanks to all who have responded so far, you’ve given me lots to think about.

At this point, I’m unfortunately committed to Lord Kroak and the Balewind Vortex for this week’s game simply because of the models I have built and ready to go. I don’t own an Engine of the Gods, my Slann is still in his box, and I only own one Bastiladon (which is on my list for Thursday’s game).

I suppose what I’ll try to do to get Lord Kroak up on his perch is to try to set it up as efficaciously as possible outside of Nagash’s Unbinding range, which, as far as I know, is still only 18” despite all his terrifying bonuses.

As for the more general questions asked by @Joshua Horchler, I usually run as many Skinks as I can. This week that will be one unit of forty with Boltspitters and Star-Bucklers, all I have built (and painted). And while I still haven’t hit double digits in the number of games of Age of Sigmar I’ve played, I think that you’re onto something with my tactical shortcomings—in the past at least I’ve probably just been trying to kill everything and not playing to objectives. This week’s game is a little different, as the winning condition is whoever controls a single objective at the end of the fifth round wins—there are no points scored in earlier rounds. Which isn’t to say that playing to that objective isn’t something I should be doing from turn one, obviously.

Right now I’m thinking of gunning hard for Nagash early on with my shooting (Skinks, Razordon, Bastiladon, Salamander) and going after the other Heroes in my opponent’s army with Lord Kroak’s spells. That leaves my two units of Saurus Warriors to hunt for the hidden objective (it’s one of six on the board) and try to stay alive. Which leaves the question of what I’ll be doing about his Battlelines of Skeletons and Zombies, I suppose.

Tie the skeletons and zombies up with your skinks, wary fighter out etc.

I guess you roll a dice for each marker on the table and the first six is the objective? buff your basilidon and teleport it onto it and then just turtle up around him.

Depending on what your opponent has he might have some fast flying units.

 

[Christopher]

Depending on what your opponent has he might have some fast flying units.

He usually runs a unit of three Vargheists, who can fly and have 12” movement. That said, they still can’t approach within 3” of the Balewind Vortex, can they? Not that they won’t be plenty problematic for everybody else.

And, oh, yes, that’s how the objective is determined. Each player sets up three markers in their own territory, farther than 6” from any other marker, farther from 6” from the edge of the battlefield, and you roll a dice for each one you control at the beginning of your turn—“control” meaning having the most number of models within 3”. The first six that comes up designates the objective for the game and the other five markers are removed. I suppose I should consider the strategies of where to place my three markers and whether to set models up on them during set-up. Thanks!

 

[Joshua Horchler]

Yeah, singe objective games are tough when facing giant, tough heroes. You are an underdog in those objectives. Typically, more balanced gametypes are more difficult for Nagash type armies becuase you will be able to spread your forces better than them. You can read the Battle report from Adepticon from Adam Trunzo. He faced Alarielle and had an amazing alpha strike, but couldn't push her off.

You can always try to bait Nagash to one side of the map, and hope the objective is then determined on the otherside. You have teleport to shuffle your units around. It might be risky, but if you distract Nagash on a board edge far away from the objective, you could use TPs to out maneuver him.

If this worked out, you could then focus on his fast moving units and play the game that way. Something to think about at least!

 

[Christopher]

Thanks again, @Joshua Horchler!

Say, @Crowsfoot, (or anyone else who knows), what do you mean by “turtle up around” the Bastiladon? I’ve seen the word used here and there on the boards, but it’s not in the glossary. I’m guessing it means to surround the Behemoth with other units, like my Skinks or Saurus Warriors, is that right?

 

[Joshua Horchler]

Final plug, this is why i love Shadowstrike. Movement and ability to punish opponents who mess up their deployment. It also leads opponents into turtling, which you can expect and play around. Good luck fellow Skink!

 

[Christopher]

Final plug, this is why i love Shadowstrike. Movement and ability to punish opponents who mess up their deployment. It also leads opponents into turtling, which you can expect and play around. Good luck fellow Skink!

Thank you! This week’s game is 1500 points and I didn’t see a way to build a good Shadowstrike list. My list for next week’s game, which is 2000 points, is Shadowstrike. It will be my first experience with that battalion and my largest game ever. Actually, this week’s game will be my largest game ever, too. 1000 points is the most I’ve played so far.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Thanks again, @Joshua Horchler!

Say, @Crowsfoot, (or anyone else who knows), what do you mean by “turtle up around” the Bastiladon? I’ve seen the word used here and there on the boards, but it’s not in the glossary. I’m guessing it means to surround the Behemoth with other units, like my Skinks or Saurus Warriors, is that right?

Some of the more used terms as posted by @Itepixcauh

• More than happy to compile some of the most usual terms:
  
  Chaff
  A unit whose primary role is to protect other units till they get into combat. This is done by blocking LOS or giving cover from ranged attacks, or by taking the first charge, or by disordering a unit by charging them. They are there to die, but die in an useful way.
  
  Anvil
  A unit meant to hold the enemy in place whilst other units maneuver to attack that enemy.
  
  Hammer
  A unit with high damage output
  
  Glass Hammer
  A unit with high damage output, but very low defensive capabilities.
  
  LB
  Lightning Bolt
  
  BW
  Breath Weapon
  
  Tarpit
  A cheap unit the purpose of which is to slow down and tie down your opponent's units. Typically like an Anvil, except the unit has likely a zero percent chance of ever actually WINNING a fight against pretty much anything. Like zombies or other cheap, high nerve units. Difference to chaff is that with chaff you kind of WANT them to die in a turn or two, only bringing them there to hold off the opponent so that the sequence of combats (and units dying) is in your favour. Tarpits are units that are there to last forever, holding off opponents while you deal with the rest of their army.
  
  Support
  A unit that by itself is rather non-awesome, but is very useful when it gets to interact with other units. Typically sources of Inspiring fall in this category, as well as some other units that have "aura" effects that give benefits to nearby units. Also troops of infantry are often in this category, as alone they can't really do that much, but by combo charging they can become very, very nasty indeed.
  
  Skewed list
  An army that is powerful in one aspect, but lacking in others, attempting to achieve victory through overpowering opposition in that one strong area. Typically an Orc list is an example of skewing a list through going all-out on combat power. Other types might be shooting heavy lists, flyer heavy lists or some forms of spam. Note that all skewed lists aren't spam. Skewed lists tend to be very powerful in beginner groups, and fall in favor as people get more skilled at playing against an opponent's weakness.
  
  MSU List
  A list that consists of multiple small units, typically spamming troops of fast heavy hitters. These lists are difficult to play, but in the hands of a skilled player can be very effective. These lists rely on outdeployment and outmaneuvering an opponent.
  
  Elite List
  A list that consists of few units, each of which is very powerful. These lists rely on being so tough that a larger number of weaker enemies can't overpower them. These lists are very powerful against beginners, who have trouble coordinating their units into supporting each other.
  
  Spamming
  Taking multiple units with similar skills, typically Lightning Bolt or Breath Weapon. These lists seem very powerful in theory, but I have personally yet to see one fielded against me and I don't really believe they are as tough as they seem, as I don't think concentrating Breath Weapons is really as easy as many people seem to think.. I might be mistaken on this point.

 

[Aginor]

Just one additional note from me:

Glass Hammer
A unit with high damage output, but very low defensive capabilities.

also called Glass Cannon sometimes

 

[Itepixcauh]

Just one additional note from me:


also called Glass Cannon sometimes

Yes of course!

Always happy about the recognition @Crowsfoot

 

[Slanntastic]

@Christopher "turtle up" just refers to creating a defensive position usually by having units tightly grouped together. To "turtle up" around the bastiladon would look like putting a mystic shield on it and then surrounding it with a unit of skinks or saurus .

My experience playing against death is pretty similar to what has already been stated. Play for the objectives as much as possible, you must kill the heros. Also, if you have to go after a unit throw everything you can into it and delete it. The only caveat would be if you can bring a big unit of skelies you are in combat with down a bracket to degrade their attacks in the combat phase. Just know that they are coming back as soon as the death player gets a hero phase