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8th Ed. Why do people dislike Cold One Cav?

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rustybrazenfire

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I've only played a handful of games so far, but I'm a bit confused as to why folks tend to dislike CoC. They've been a great unit for me! Could it be situational?

At any given point I might face any of the following armies:

WoC (or Daemons)
Vampire Counts
Skaven
Greenskins (focused on Night Goblins)
Dark Elves
Dwarfs
MAYBE Ogres (but our Ogre player hasn't been available of late)

Maybe it is because I haven't seen much better cavalry (or much at all) fielded, but everyone I play with seems to have serious issues going toe-to-toe with the CoC. To date the closest was the Dare Elves and their Cold Ones, but I was able to push through them.

My setup:

15 Cold ones with a champion, musician, and a standard bearer w/ and a magic banner (I change this up... this week I'm running the Razor Standard)

1 Scar-Vet (BSB) with a weapon that gives him ASF and sometimes Venom of the Firefly Frog

Yes, it's a lot of points in one unit, but I'm able to pull 3 ranks on a good day (2 full after some casualties), have a good chance to call out most non-Lord champions with the Scar-Vet and the ASF/poison combo gets into them pretty good.

These guys are my primary flankers... I try to find the flank with the straightest open shot to my enemy's deployment and charge hard into him. If I get lucky and line it up just right I can usually carry a charge through one unit into the next

Now one of the big reasons I run 16 total cav vs. something more sane like 12 or 13 is that one of my first actual model purchases was a lot of 16 of these guys. Got them on the cheap and haven't regretted it yet!

So yeah, where is the flaw here? Is it because it is an "all the eggs in one basket" approach? Why in general are CoC so frowned upon, and where would you spend the points instead? My typical army is:

These guys
A Slann or an Oldblood on a Carnosaur
A Priest with Engine of the Gods
Either Skrox or Saurus Warriors for core
A unit of Salamanders

Any thoughts would be helpful! I can post an example build (with the specifics and such) if that'd be useful!
 
A large reason why people dislike CoC is because their stupidity rule. Although it doesn't happen often with Lizardmen's outstanding leadership it does happen more often than it should (or so it seems).

IMHO I LOVE CoC much like you do, although I tend to run them in units of five or six. I'm very big into infantry doing most of the slogging and fighting w/ small Cav units flanking and aiding my infantry. Plus when you get a nicely tooled scar vet or even oldblood they are nigh on unstoppable!
 
I think a big issues with CoC is that they have only I2 so unless you're attacking great weapon users, other saurus, or dwarfs chances are the enemy will be striking you first and through sheer volume of attacks that can be pretty nasty. CoC used to be better in 7th but the new charge rules put them in a world of hurt.

Yes, it's a lot of points in one unit, but I'm able to pull 3 ranks on a good day (2 full after some casualties), have a good chance to call out most non-Lord champions with the Scar-Vet and the ASF/poison combo gets into them pretty good.
Click to expand...

Just so you know Venom of the Firefly Frog doesn't work with magical weapons. It only works on mundane ones.
 
I think the main reason is their high point cost, they won't make their points back, a normal infantry unit for the same points is more effective and way more survivable, for 5 CoC with FC you can take 18 saurus with banner and musician.
 
IMO they are just not worth the points. Better off with their points worth in Stegadons.
 
Thanks for the input guys! And thanks for pointing out the Venom issue Cougmeister, I'll have to re-read that description.

Fought some Skaven over the weekend... this unit was able to take out a unit of Jezzail and Rat Ogres and disrupt a stonethrower. I charged hard on his flank to break through, and frankly it worked well. When he ended up giving up I only had 4 of the original 16 left including the hero.

I can see where they aren't worth the points in some situations - vs. high strength, armor piercing, or ASF comes to mind. But these guys are very good at disrupting the flanks in my experience. They just haven't failed me yet!
 
Why do I dislike CoR?

Only 1 wound
lousy initiative normally requires them to strike after they've been killed (which is a bit of a downer)

Basically the 8th Ed combat system totally kills them, with infantry dishing out a bucket load of attacks and them being realistically too expensive to field in large units (i.e 10+) they often get shredded before they can even strike.

I'm well aware there are spells that can augment this, but to be honest if you're relying on getting a particular spell off to do any damage at all, its time to bring another unit.
 
Hey, Norman has found a unit that works for him, has proved said unit can be affective, and people still criticize his unit choice. I think folks sometimes get too into 'Mathammer,' breaking down unit costs to the nth degree without sometimes just letting it all go and having fun with a an army you enjoy. On a separate note, I think LM tends to attract infantry types (understandably so) who aren't experienced with the best results cavalry can return.

Norman, more power to you. I think your army set up reads well--it's close to what I've been running, although I've since switched my Oldblood/Carnie to a Slann and my CoC to a steg.
 
On other tactica forums that aren't LM specialized the cold one cavalry is feared and many a tactic has been to throw everything at the cold ones for fear of their attacks. Even in my games my opponent has left various sections of his army wide open just to try and lock them down. It's this fear more than anything that will stop them becoming useless. A units value is not just in making points back, but in supporting your army drawing fire and then making itself useful. Protection and diversion is sometimes more powerful than the actual combat.
 
I've got 20 some cold one riders that have been sitting in a box since 8th edition came out, just because I had convinced myself they weren't effective any more. This thread has made me want to give them a go; thanks, guys!

Light is definitely looking like the lore of choice to help the riders, but it may be tricky keeping the Slann close enough to them as they rush ahead. Any ideas for other supporting units for this kind of army?
 
Gor-rok said:
I've got 20 some cold one riders that have been sitting in a box since 8th edition came out, just because I had convinced myself they weren't effective any more. This thread has made me want to give them a go; thanks, guys!

Light is definitely looking like the lore of choice to help the riders, but it may be tricky keeping the Slann close enough to them as they rush ahead. Any ideas for other supporting units for this kind of army?
Click to expand...

I think a slann with lore of light and a magic carpet would be a decent unit choice. :D
 
It'd be a great choice, but my gaming group decreed that the Slann can't go on the carpet due to his model not being on foot. I think I'll just have to maneuver him a bit, and with five ranks of cavalry in my unit, I should have a good chance of reaching the back of them with my spell.
 
i'm a big supporter in COC but i have never fielded anything unit larger than 6. now in 7th ed, these guys were great. yes they get the attention of the opponent and draws a lot of attention. including that when you get the charge, they GET TO STRIKE FIRST, on top of everything else, they cause fear, autobreak comes to mind when charging small units such as shades, fast cav, warmachines, etc. but now in 8th ed. i have yet to even touch them. my guys will get chopped to pieces before they even get to fight. fear doesn't make other units run anymore, they cost way too much, only 1 wound, I2 doesn't help at all, and there is greater value somewhere else than the COC. i could field 3 units of 5 chameleon skinks, 2 salamanders with extra handlers, a nice big block of skinks for steadfast to hold up a unit... the list goes on. don't get me wrong, i like the guys but they really took a great big hit in this new edition. people still fear them maybe because their mindset is still thinking about what they could do in 7th ed. but if they consistenly faced these guys in the new edition, they would realize how little of an effect they would have. if you're going to use them to deter your opponent, try 1 salamander so that they can try and take that out. just remember that a salamander has the capability to destroy a complete unit so people do want to kill that first.
 
It seems to me that many people are using these CoC units to run up into the teeth of the enemy units and hit them hard. While this is truely a good tactic in previous editions with inititive deciding who strikes first you have to start thinking out of the box. Look at the solution, not the problem. See what your unit CAN do instead of what it can't do.

These guys have the highest movement value in the army barring our excellent terradons. This means flankers. Remember that in the flank your fighting fewer models and they can't use their pile in rule against you.

CoC are still a hard hitting unit with strength five on the charge and three attacks per model. There weapon skill is good and their armour save is excellent.

Don't forget also that people still fear our CoC and for good reason! This means they will magic and shoot at the unit(s) which leaves our slower blocks of saurus to get into the fight with fewer casualties.

I faught against Orks and Gobblins this last weekend and I used two units of CoC. Having placed them and used them as flankers I effectively brought down almost double their total point value in combined charges and keeping them on the flank of my enemy's army. Plus once I got there I disrupted his battle line because he had to break his line to deal with this threat.
 
their flanking value has gone down aswell since you need 2 ranks to cancell the ranks of an opponent. not even on the flank are they dangerous now, and given the fact that basically any enemy unit will be stubborn against a decent size unit of COC its hard to find an argument for them.
a unit of 10-15 might be good, but thats quite expensive, not to mention such a unit could only be used in larger games.
 
They could be decent flank protectors, which I believe is what John was getting at. However for just something that runs up the flanks then can't do a whole lot, it is still a fair few points even for only 5-6 of them.

Without negating ranks they would still be useful charging into a flank just for inflicting a huge amount of kills. But for those points, I'm still not convinced a steg wouldn't be a better option.
 
I ended up trading out mine for a 22 + 2 skrox unit, I haven't regretted it at all. I do miss them though; I always loved the idea of an angry crocodile riding a velociraptor but in an all-comers list I think they've lost too much to be taken.
 
I tend to still love CoC. Aside from Terridons, they are the fastest unit we have. If your really worried about stupidity give 'em that banner that give +1 to LD. Plus you can through some fun combos in the unit at higher points games. Place a Old-Blood with the Wizard Hat in there and you have a nice heavy hitting flanker with magical capabilities and the stupidity from the hat doesn't make the inherent stupidity in cold ones any worse.

Though you do have to worry about infantry, especially Bretts with access to Lore of Life. But even against 20 Men-at-Arms with Tough 7 my CoC held out until I could make the Prophetess' unit run from my salis. Then my OB and Standard beat and ran down the infantry unit. So they can still hold up.
 
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