8th Ed. What to do...

[TheChaplain]

Hey all,

I went to a tournament today, in what is usually... a friendly/semi-competitive environment. We had some out of towners show up, who were... how to put it... in it to win it.

My first match up, lucky me, was a Skaven Player.

With two Doomwheels, an HPA, a Plague Furnace, and a Screaming Bell. The rest was pretty irrelevant as it mainly hid in the back to perserve his flags for Blood and Glory.

I got completely tabled in turn 3. Ancient Steg ate the Initiative test spell, dwellers was largely ineffective against the bell/furnance with them being unbreakable, same with the sallies. I wasn't able to bring down the doomwells, my saurus got tagged by the HPA/Doomwheels for a crushing defeat with something like... 20+ strength 6 hits a round of combat.

What... what do you do against this? Being new to WHFB, it really felt as if I shouldn't have bothered deploying, could've saved myself 10 bucks and part of the afternoon just not to play this guy. I keep going over the battle in my head, but... nothing... really adds up as a counter.

I couldn't even use +4 toughness from Flesh to Stone, because the bell does that... anything with ST7 suffers D3 wounds. No saves.

 

[Gor-rok]

Here's my two cents worth...

If you want to come out ahead against Skaven, or Daemons, or Dark Elves- any powerful army, that is- the first step is to figure out what you're likely to be up against. Your time at that tournament wasn't a waste because now you know the units that are going to cause you problems.

I'm not sure what all was in your army, but it's quite possible that there really was nothing you could do against that list. If you expect to face Skaven in a competitive setting a lot more, you'll have to tailor your own list to be able to counter it. Slann + Lore of Life + Temple Guard isn't the only combination available to us by any means.

Shadows, for example, could lower the toughness of the wheels before a Scar Veteran hits it with the Piranha Blade. Giving a character the Ruby Ring is a good counter to HPA regeneration- right before your skinks shoot it up with poison. Feedback Scroll or Cupped Hands + Bane Head might be a way to get the Gray Seer. The wheels count as chariots, so get them in a position to take dangerous terrain tests; if your skink priest has the Wind Blast spell, push one into a forest or something.

The point is, if you run your same old usual list and get tabled, you're going to have to either adapt, or avoid tournaments. If people are paying money to play, they're playing to win, which is as it should be. It's possible to make a list that's still versatile, but that will have counters to many of the nastiest things you're likely to face.

WHFB being what it is, there will always be army lists that are darn near unstoppable, and underpriced, overpowered units will be the mainstay of the tournament scene. Depending on the list you take, or even the army you play, sometimes there is literally almost nothing you can do to win, and this will discourage the heck out of anybody. You won't get to be a better player by facing 'friendly' lists, though, and there's no better sense of accomplishment than finally laying waste to some power gamers' unstoppable army.

I hope I don't sound like I'm preaching, but your post really made me think, and I'm directing the above commentary at myself as much as anyone. As someone once said, victory is always possible- if you are willing to redefine victory. If I define winning as a game that teaches me something and makes me a better player, I reckon I've got a flawless record...

 

[HoverBoy]

The wheels count as chariots,

No they don't theyre unique as per the rulebook bestiary.

Ancient Steg ate the Initiative test spell

Did you test on the crew initiative because page 10 is clear on the fact that models with combined characteristics test on the highest. If he made you take 6 tests (steg+crewmen) you where cheated, as these spells clearly states it causes one test per model, even if its template nature causes several hits.

dwellers was largely ineffective against the bell/furnance with them being unbreakable,

How does unbreakable help when half his ratmen die on each casting, you should have held back and cast it several times rather than rush in and get in combat with an unbreakable block.

I wasn't able to bring down the doomwells, my saurus got tagged by the HPA/Doomwheels for a crushing defeat with something like... 20+ strength 6 hits a round of combat.

Yea as has been said poison, and for HPA combined with flaming spells, make things dead. The lore of light signature spell has yet to let me down on this.

 

[Hiv0r]

I'm not gonna lie it sounds like tha skaven list could have been a lot harder... Double abom's... Lightning cannons etc. Doomwheels are nothing to get excited over.

Everything hover said he's right about sounds like you just got out-played not out-listed my friend

 

[rammramm]

Just to be clear.

You are not suggesting that flaming attacks remove the HPA regeneration save for the skink blowdarts that follow right? Just that it removes the chance of the abomination spewing up swarms or returning to life. Otherwise I must be reading the rules wrong.

Other than that I agree with what has been said. Skaven can be nasty but LM can be worse, and we have units that will stop anything the Rat-men throws at us. Skinks and salamanders are usually the key in defeating the skaven.

Salamanders fry their blocks and skinks destroy their DW HPA or WLC easily. when it comes to close combat their standard troops cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag and so that phase will be easily won when you have taken care of his monsters.

 

[HoverBoy]

You are not suggesting that flaming attacks remove the HPA regeneration save for the skink blowdarts that follow right?

No i'm not suggesting that, but neither magic nor poison are usually enough to take an HPA down, acombo of both works best. Also poison still sucks for things that only have 4+ saves.

 

[TheChaplain]

Well, like I've said, still fairly new to WHFB and Lizardmen as a whole, so it's more than likely most people out experience me.

With the Stormbanner and the huge charges of the Doomwheel, alot of my skinks were actually mowed down early, despite putting a sizable distance between them and the wheels on either flank. I was counting on the banner lasting longer, to interfere with his shooting(warp lightning cannon, doomwheels, etc) a little longer, but it actually ended on the start of his turn 1.

With alot of my skinks destroyed/ran off the board by roving doomwheels due to the Doomwheels stupid trundle forward after charges are declared, but before they're resolved bullcrap( to make the way clear for long range charges with the scouting... poison... dudes with 360' charge or whatever the hell they were.)

I proceeded to lose 1 group of Salamanders on an insanely long distance doomwheel over-run and a double-failed panic check.

With his Grayseer blowing up in the process of downing my Ancient Steg, I only needed 1 more VP to end the game with a win. So I dwellered the Screaming Bell Twice, which he just backed away from me to preserve the points.

By turn 2 the HPA and 2nd Doomwheel were grinding my Stubborn Saurus(Scar vet with Crown of Command), which I barely held for that turn with the mass amount of strength 6 attacks from the HPA.

Start of turn 3 saw two doomwheels, plague furnance, and HPA trundling into my TG.

I might've been out played, but I clearly wasn't equipped to handle this spam of high-end units.

So I'd like to ask all of you, as a whole, what you would've brought to this caliber-tournament to be prepared for this, and STILL been an all-comers list to deal with Chaos/High Elves/VC/Beastmen that was up next for me.

 

[Gor-rok]

Gor-rok wrote:
The wheels count as chariots,

No they don't theyre unique as per the rulebook bestiary.

You're right that the Doomwheel is classed as unique, but it treats terrain the same as a chariot (Skaven FAQ page 4, 'Rolling Doom'). Any terrain is dangerous for it, and it'll take D6 wounds when it fails a test.

Did you test on the crew initiative because page 10 is clear on the fact that models with combined characteristics test on the highest. If he made you take 6 tests (steg+crewmen) you where cheated, as these spells clearly states it causes one test per model, even if its template nature causes several hits.

The problem with the stegadon is that it doesn't have a combined profile. The riders can be attacked and killed separately from the mount, and the model is counted as a ridden monster (Lizardman FAQ page 2, first paragraph). If it gets hit by a "line template" hit like a cannonball or Crack's Call, they all get hit and have to test on their own Initiative (BRB, page 105, last paragraph).

You are not suggesting that flaming attacks remove the HPA regeneration save for the skink blowdarts that follow right?

Actually I was suggesting just that, but looking at the rules I see I was way off. Thanks for the correction, that'll help me avoid surprise and embarrassment next game.

So, what point total was this tournament?

 

[TheChaplain]

2,500 point total.

 

[Gor-rok]

Ok, here's a list I'd try in that situation.

Slann: Lore of Light. Book of Ashur, Divine Plaque, BSB- Banner of Swiftness or Discipline. Becalming, Rumination, Mystery.

Scar Veteran- LA, Shield, Burning Blade, Dragonhelm, Luckstone, Other Trickster's Shard.

Scar Veteran- Halberd, Armor of Fortune, Dragonbane Gem, Firefly Frog Venom.

Skink Priest- Cube

Skink Priest- Dispel Scroll

2x 29 Saurus- full command

3x 10 skirmishers

2x 6 Chameleons

2x 3 Salamander- one with extra skink

The Scar Veterans go with the Saurus, and the Priests can either go with skirmishers or hide out alone. The Slann flies along solo in the center of the battle line, blasts things, and keeps Speed of Light and/or Timewarp and Pha's protection up on the Saurus. Speed of Light will save everyone's sanity when it comes to initiative test attacks, so make it a priority. Keep him within 3" of one of the units for the 4+ Look Out Sir, and failing that he has a 2+ ward against spells and shooting.

With 30 blowpipe skinks and 12 chameleons, you should be able to chip away at monsters, and the Salamanders will fry whole blocks of troops. You could easily drop one salamander from each group and take two more skirmisher units, but either way you're pretty formidable.

The gear on the Scar Vets is open for debate, too. I fight Skulltaker a lot, so my HtH heroes get fire protection; YMMV.

Criticism is welcome, and I'd love to hear what everyone else came up with.

 

[HoverBoy]

The problem with the stegadon is that it doesn't have a combined profile. The riders can be attacked and killed separately from the mount, and the model is counted as a ridden monster (Lizardman FAQ page 2, first paragraph). If it gets hit by a "line template" hit like a cannonball or Crack's Call, they all get hit and have to test on their own Initiative (BRB, page 105, last paragraph).

This is a common misconseption, the ability to attack them separately does not magically split them into multiple models, there is still only one stegadon.
This is my reasoning on it:
1. The "Templaes" rule explains what happens when a ridden monster is hit by a template.
2. This replaces the 2nd step of the "Shooting at Ridden Monsters rules" whenever a template is involved thus eliminating the randomising rules.
3. It is then followed by step 3 the wounding rules.
4. Purple Sun/Pit of Shades are spells that use templates and thus hit the rider(s) and mount.
5. These spells however do not wound but cause a characteristic test – one per model.
6. These hits would mean several tests, but this would brake rule example 5, because a rider(s) and the monster are one model.
Conclusion – We have no choice but to make one test using the rules as given on page 10.

 

[rammramm]

I am sory but your logic is lost on me.

Q1: When a ridden monster is hit by a template, who is hit? A1: booth monster and riders.

Q2: When you decided who are hit, who will take the effect of the hit? A2: Everything that was hit.

Ergo, since every model on the Stegadon base (note that the Stegadon is a monster with several riders) is hit by the spell they will all test for the result of the spell. Just like they all take a "to wound"-test when hit by a cannonball they must all take a I-test for the magic.

That is how I read it, and even though I would prefer to play it in some other way, I see no possibility to do so.

If I am wrong I would gladly be corrected.

 

[HoverBoy]

I did correct you the spell explicitly states it couses one test per model not per hit, the monster and rider(s) are one model as per the rules for all mounts on page 104. And unless someone can find a rule where the rider(s) and monster count as separate models in this situation we cannot make the steg and his crew take 6 tests without braking the rules for the spell. In order to not brake the spell we must revert to the multiple characteristics rule on page 10.

 

[walach]

this could defintley use an FAQ...

for me, i agree, it should be one test for the whole thing, and this is supported by the rules to an extent, but as you have pointed out they're rather contradictory.

as an aside, at a tournament last weekend, this came up, my opponent was casting pit on my steg, so we asked for a referee to rule it, they ruled that each part should have to take a test using its own initative. I ended up chucking all my dispel dice at it, stopping it, and fortunatley becalming cogitation ruined his next spell, so it was all good for me

 

[Gor-rok]

I do see where you're coming from Hoverboy, and I really do hope you're right- my stegadons haven't been getting out much in 8th for fear of this spell (and cannons). It does say the rider and mount are counted as one model on page 104..."except as noted below".

One of the 'exceptions' noted on page 105, is that while a cavalry model is treated as a single model for the purposes of hitting and wounding, a ridden monster is not, and, if the base is touched by a template spell or attack, both riders and mount are hit. Which leads me to my stance on the rule I've been using, right or wrong.

Let's hope for a better FAQ, and if they clear things up in line with your interpretation, I'll happily, happily concede the point. Until then I'll save the stegadons for less competitive games. So, any more thoughts on killing a Skaven tournament list?

 

[HoverBoy]

One of the 'exceptions' noted on page 105, is that while a cavalry model is treated as a single model for the purposes of hitting and wounding, a ridden monster is not

Again i say they can be hit and wounded separately, but they are never stated to be separate models. In fact the rulse on page 105 even contradict you on the 3rd paragraph:

As a single model, the monster and its rider are considered to be a single target.

Later on it lets you know what happens in several specific situations.
The "Templates" rule on that same page explains that templates hit both the rider and monster.
So any spells that use templates would roll to wound both the monster and rider, however some spells dont wound they cause characteristic tests and remove models. So at first the comclusion is that everyone takes a test, however all these spells have a very specific ruling in them, every model takes a test and a monster and rider are one single model, if it said to take a test for every hit then you'd be right.

 

[Gor-rok]

Again, I understand your argument. They are a single target. It's my contention that, based on the wording of the text, a rider and monster are no longer considered a single model when they are hit by anything.

We're way sidetracked from the OP here. Let's start a new thread and continue the discussion, and with any luck we can get some additional feedback. Or, perhaps an FAQ will come along that will make the whole debate irrelevant. In the meantime, any more ideas about killing Skaven?

 

[TheRolfgar]

No need to make a separate post about it since its been argues for 5 pages on warseer already...

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283864

And I'm pretty sure this wasn't the first time Their rules forums is roarsome!

I personally go with Page 10 of the brb, make it at the highest, simply because the spell itself states the word Each Model, the Steg is 1 model.

 

[HoverBoy]

No need to make a separate post about it since its been argues for 5 pages on warseer already...

Warseer, Dakka and several other sites, as well as the fact most tournament do it this way.

 

[Gor-rok]

Great link, thanks Rolfgar!

The thing is, they're not any closer to a consensus on this than we are. I don't agree with the 'single test' theory; as page 105 indicates, when it comes to being hit with an attack, the monster and rider cease to be considered separate models. A direct quote from the ridden monster template section: "...only one model will be hit at the higher strength... All other models are hit at the lower strength." (This is referring to the single model of rider and mount being hit by a stone thrower).

As far as "most tournaments" go, the local and regional tournaments here rule in favor of taking multiple tests- that doesn't make Hoverboy's interpretation wrong, nor does it make mine right. Let's agree to disagree and wait for the FAQ that someone claimed was coming in December.