Discussion What Official Information We Have on the Dragon Isles?

[CaniusLanium]

When it comes to "official", I mean the rulebooks, army books, officially licensed roleplay books (HogPub, FF, C7, etc.), specialised games (except for Blood Bowl), White Dwarf articles, and BL novels ("officialness" in that order).

I know 6E Lizardmen army book as a short line about the isles, there's a WD article about the dinos on the Dragon Isles that mentions the feral lizardmen there (but no rules for the feral lizardmen, just they fought each other).

I'm rather curious if there's any more lore on them than this. I know places like Reavers Port and Neue Maggaritta(?) came from Middenheim that expands on Lustria, so I'm wondering if there are more about them out there. Also more info about Zhatlan and Karak Zorn would also be welcome.

 

[pyro-dragon]

I remember reading a little more about the ferals. There is no slann but spawnings still happen. It would suggest that Skinks were the key to keeping the civilization going but apparently the spawned Skinks are pretty quickly hunted down and eaten by the feral Saurus.

 

[J.Logan]

Ditto about hearing about how it was the lack of any slann that has them go feral. Hadn't heard about feral saurus eating skinks though.

I think it's one of those areas left deliberately vague so that tabletop players can create their own armies based there without worry about the lore.

 

[pyro-dragon]

Hadn't heard about feral saurus eating skinks though.

When I find it again, I'll post it. I was kind of hoping there was more info about it as this is a phenomena that I wanted to work into a story I am writing, like, how far can a Saurus be without going crazy? (Also if a Slann is required for Saurus to remain civilized, its got major implications for my GoS universe as is currently written!!)

 

[Killer Angel]

i fear Lexicanum is the most complete source on the matter...

Dragon isles

 

[CaniusLanium]

Yeah... those four are the only sources I know of too. Surprised that there are little written about it yet they name dropped it regardless. Like it's not even a legend among their own, they just knew it's there and whatevers

 

[pyro-dragon]

I guess GW just didn't really develop it.

 

[CaniusLanium]

What I wanted out of this thread originally, was hoping to have a way of understanding why the isles were added in the first place. I can see the lizardmen were the very embodiement of degeneration in the Warhammer fantasy universe -- which is to say, each generation is lesser than the previous. This is a theme found throughout the Warhammer-duoverses, as there always were a great and glorious past, and then some sort of calamity occured -- usually something of the current generation's own doing, that led to a irreversible decline.
The elder races are all representations of such ideas, both the Elves and the Dwarfs are mere shades of what they once were, and the Lizardmen, left without the guidance of the Old Ones, are reduced to almost machinically following some sort of indescript pre-determined "program".
These remnants of that distant triumph is like an echo in the void, its ripples slowly and surely reduced to whispers, until, one day the great bang in the beginning completely dies out.
Yet the Dragon Isles is not really required for this, as both the Lustrian temple-cities and Zhlatlan stands for the regressive nature of the Lizardmen culture as a whole. Dragon Isles serves only to show what happens to the "lesser" species when they are left without guidance from the Slanns for a very long time. What's the implication of this writing? Does it mean that the Lizardmen species are inherently beastial, and only the Slanns' guidance/power maintains their civil behaviors? That the Skinks and Saurusi are not capable of civilization building by themselves? Is there something about their nature that is not intended by the Old Ones, as seem by their degeneration?
As far as I know the Isles weren't mentioned in the first 3 editions of WHFB, nor in the first edition of Roleplay (or any of it, AFAIK). It certinaly can be an interesting idea for RP if whilst not requiring the GM to consider the possible interaction between player characters and a Slann.
One other thing I can think of is in the 1st edition WHFB, where it is said that some Old Slanns, after the collapse of the Polar Portals, turned to the worship of Chaos. The isles might be a small nod to the old lore when the Lizardmen species were not as impenetrable as they seem.

 

[Killer Angel]

What's the implication of this writing? Does it mean that the Lizardmen species are inherently beastial, and only the Slanns' guidance/power maintains their civil behaviors? That the Skinks and Saurusi are not capable of civilization building by themselves?

My idea is that yes, lizardmen live in a very organized society, founded on the Great Plan and a rigid hierarchy.
Skinks are intelligent beings and can govern and plan within a certain set of parameters, but in the end it all revolves around the absolute authority of Slanns. Remove the Slann and that city is going to decline.
IMO, without a Slann, only a Great skink, with enough charisma, capability and strenght of will, could "act as" a slann and keep the whole thing working.
Tetto'Eko and Tehenhauin are such figures. Other ones? ... i don't know

 

[J.Logan]

While I can't speak from the narrative implications of the Dragon Isles, from a meta standpoint, it's there for players to just create their own army that they can then say comes from there and that's why they won't ever include a slann in their army. It's an open chasm for player creativity to come into play, which GeeDubs have done in the past.

Pros and cons, on the one hand, lore grognards like me particularly like having lore to established places. On the other, we wouldn't have had the void to be filled by the saurumai.

With The Old World and GeeDubs seeming to desire actually putting in some lore for previous untouched locales (Cathay), maybe eventually the Dragon Isles will be looked at later down the line, in second edition TOW, with the Isles likely being an Army of Infamy for the lizardmen if they are released from Legends status. Theoretically, if GeeDubs want to avoid Lustria for a time, the Dragon Isles could even be the focus point for the lizardmen.

 

[pyro-dragon]

I'm not sure about the skink's ability to maintain civilization independent from the Slann but its hinted at in various places that the saurus have an underlaying savagery that only the presence of a slann and/or the routines and structures of civilization keep in check.
As far as the Dragon Isles go, apparently there are no skinks because the savage saurus eat them just as soon as they emerge from the spawning pools.

The saurus were the first servants created for the slann. Created from some existing primordial reptiles. They were seen as effective at killing but otherwise, not that great. So the skinks were then created.
That can be read as the saurus being the prototypes, the first attempt. Flawed. Possibly their regression to savagery was part of it. The skinks can then be seen as the second attempt. Many improvements made from lessons learned. They didn't need to make them effective warriors as the saurus already have that role covered.