Discussion Warhammer Wild West as an alternative setting? Brainstorming

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

My first thought was to homebrew a set of rules for Westhammer matches because I really like homebrewing game rule sets.

Though reviewing the Mordheim rules, it would be a lot easier to modify the Mordheim rules rather than invent something whole cloth.

So I guess Westhammer would drastically reduce the number of available armor and melee weapons and reduce their general effectiveness while greatly increasing the options and raw power of ranged weapons.



I think the existing rules for hiding in Mordheim are extremely limited. I pondered this and had the thought of adding a Stealth trait. I have the basic theory down but not the specific numbers.

Many characters would have a Stealth trait of 0, and many characters would have a Stealth of 1 or 2 which means Stealth is a last desperation ploy that probably won't work but you might get lucky. Most teams would probably only have one character option with a high Stealth rating but skaven and goblins would have high stealth all around.

A stealth roll of some kind would have a base difficulty modified by the availability of cover and and the distance to the nearest enemy. A failed Stealth roll means the character wasted his/her action. A successful stealth roll means that the character's model is pulled from the table and a counter is placed in their last spot representing that the character is "hiding."

A hiding character cannot attack or be attacked. You keep adding counters to the first counter until the player wants to make the hidden character reappear. They declare where they want the character to pop (within limits based on the character's movement) and then make another Stealth roll. If they succeed they reappear where the controlling player wants. If they fail the roll the opponent moves the reappearing player a number of inches equal to how badly the Stealth roll is failed.

Stealthy characters would have more options for initial deployment too, they could start out hidden, but again if they fail their Stealth roll to reappear their opponent can move them.

Characters could perform a "search" action based on Initiative (which seems to be the stand in for smarts and perception in Mordheim) to force a hidden character to pop up. A searching character would still be able to attack that round (allowing you to swing at or shoot at the would-be hider at least once before they disappear again) but would suffer a penalty to attack rolls (to prevent people from searching every round).


So for weapons I figure primitive weapons like throwing knives, bows, blowpipes, and crossbows would be generally inferior to Westhammer firearms, but they don't go "BANG." An attacker with a quiet weapon can make a Stealth roll in the same turn he fires (assuming the enemy is not face on when he gets shot).

There would probably be some variation but firearms would probably fit into four categories.

Buffalo rifles and other high powered rifles are move or fire but they get an accuracy bonus and do crazy damage weapons.

Repeating rifles, revolvers, or carbines do moderate damage and can be fired twice a round under most circumstances. But they are probably the most common weapons.

Primitive black powder weapons and cheaper modern weapons do moderate damage but can only be fired once a round. They would be the province of primitive teams with limited technology or melee characters that only want a firearm as a secondary option.

Deringers have poor range and damaging power but they could be fired out of sequence such as in response to being attacked in melee.

Of course there would be some super expensive high end weapons that are enhanced by magic or steam punk technology for extra damaging power, extra fire rate, or in rare cases enhanced Stealth.

Orcs and ogres (if they are included) would almost certainly lean towards high damage weapons.

Elves and the Order of the Silver Hammer would probably lean towards high accuracy weapons.

Dwarves would probably lean towards high fire rate weapons.

Rangos, Albion, or any other primitives would probably lean towards Stealth weapons.

Pleased to see this thread has been raised from the dead, I loved this alternative setting.

Given that this game will be skirmish-oriented and revolving more around ranged combat, it might be a good idea to look at the original Necromunda rules for inspiration - Necromunda gangs were historically designed in a similar way to the gang structure ideas we talked about previously, with a Leader, regular Gangers, Juves and Heavies, and it involves similar mechanics of revolving primarily around shooting but with a bit of melee involved as well - though we want to make our own game, porting over some rules for things like ammo rolls, climbing, falling e.t.c might be a good idea to save time and effort.

 

[Warden]

A thought occurred to me as I was pondering what Westhammer would look like on the table. Thematically, stealth should be an aspect of opposing matches but I don't know how that would work on a tabletop where all players can see all models.

@Warden , you are the resident expert on Mordheim. Is approximating stealth feasible?

...it appears I have been summoned


I would have to check the old rulebooks to see if anything is similar in Mordheim before, doesn't ring a bell.

In the following thread the ideas you put forward seem pretty good, but I feel like it could be OP/ open to too much abuse for a skirmish game? I have seen 'stealth' implemented these ways:

• "sneaky" units such as Dark Elf Assassins or Goblin Fanatics were hidden inside a regular combat unit, and would spring out when an enemy got too close or charged. The opponent knows their is an assassin/fanatic on the board, but not which unit until it is too late
• Genestealer cults in 40K have an interesting deployment setup, they place counters on the table to represent units, and only after the 2nd ish turn they actually deploy their units on the table. The opponent knows where the units are, but they could be a regular unit, a character, or even a tank, and they wouldnt know until subsequent battle rounds.
• super sneaky assassin units like Wood Elf waywatchers have their "stealth" represented in game by being really hard to hit, basically a souped-up permanent cover save. Kinda like our chameleon skinks too.

I feel like these solutions (in all likely hood the last one) would be more balanced ways to make stealth work, or at least easier to use on the tabletop?



On another note, how vertical would a game of Wild West Mordheim be able to be? Most western towns I have seen on a table top setup are maybe one or two story buildings at most. The biggest thing I like about Mordheim is the potential for some epic terrain setups. I will need to ponder this.

 

[Scalenex]

I will need to ponder this.

Indeed. I like wasting time coming up with house rules I would never actual use, but I think it'd be a lot easier to adapt Mordheim to Westhammer than to invent an all new system.

There would probably be fewer multi-story terrain pieces though it would not be impossible. I figure Westhammer would have a lot of mesas and rock formations. Maybe even allow models to climb some trees.

In terms of fluff, I think stealth would be a very common tactic, though it may or may not be practical on the tabletop.

 

[Scalenex]

I am taking a small break from obsessively writing for my Scarterra World Anvil...by creating a new World Anvil Wiki.

Westhammer only has a baby wiki. I know @pendrake and @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl have their own World Anvil accounts. It's free, though I have a paid subscriptions for a few extra bells and whistles a because I want to throw a few coins at the people who keep World Anvil running.

I'm not sure if @Warden has a World Anvil but I would delighted to have his participation. @Paradoxical Pacifism and @Y'ttar Scaletail have been active on this thread as well. Anyone interested is welcome in this.

I would like to make Westhammer a collaboration project. I know World Anvil can open a world to editing by multiple authors, so that what I what I intend to do.

For people who don't want to mess with joining World Anvil and still want to contribute, you can just read along with the Westhammer links and contribute ideas on this thread.

 

[Scalenex]

Accidental double post, I do that a lot on this particularly thread. Anyway by private message or reply if you want in on this hair brained scheme.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I'd certainly like to contribute to this, though how is it possible to get authors to collab? Do you send us an invite or something?

 

[Scalenex]

I'd certainly like to contribute to this, though how is it possible to get authors to collab? Do you send us an invite or something?

I don't know, yet. Why you don't try following the world and I'll see if that opens any doors. The followers are called "Rangos" unless someone comes up with something better or the general consensus is they should just be called "followers"

I have seen several worlds with co-authors so I know it can be done. I guess I'll have to ask around the World Anvil discord (I feel uncomfortable on forums I don't have moderator power on )

I found an export world function but that would give you full control of Westhammer and lock me out.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I don't know, yet. Why you don't try following the world and I'll see if that opens any doors. The followers are called "Rangos" unless someone comes up with something better or the general consensus is they should just be called "followers"

I have seen several worlds with co-authors so I know it can be done. I guess I'll have to ask around the World Anvil discord (I feel uncomfortable on forums I don't have moderator power on )

I found an export world function but that would give you full control of Westhammer and lock me out.

I have done so, and it now allows me to edit any of the articles on there - I'm now part of the 'Editorial Team'

 

[Scalenex]

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl

I figured it out. You are an editor. Check your world Anvil feed. Check your World Anvil account for a notification.

You should be able to add new articles and you can edit articles I have written. I could theoretically make you author in which case you could submit articles but you would not be able to edit articles that you have not written.

So we don't clutter this thread, other people who want to be an editor or an author can PM me. EDIT: I checked, I can have up to three more co-authors at my current paid level of subscription to World Anvil (note co-authors I invite in do not have to have a paid subscription).

If we have more interest than space available, Scolenex will book the arena for battles to the death.

 

[Scalenex]

I have done so, and it now allows me to edit any of the articles on there - I'm now part of the 'Editorial Team'

See my latest post on this thread? I was editing that post while you are replying. In the last fifteen a located a tutorial on how to include co-authors and I entered your World Anvil user name in the co-author link.

Just to make sure it works, try writing a simple article.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I have had the most brilliant idea for implementing a skirmish wargame system for our Westhammer setting!

For a while I’ve been analysing the Victorian Sci-Fi Skirmish game In Her Majesty’s Name in this thread here, but for some reason it’s only now I’ve just thought that it would be perfect for Westhammer, especially given there will be some Steampunk elements in the Westhammer world, principally because the profiling system used for creating gangs, or Companies as they’re called in this game, is so customisable - we can create a Company for pretty much every race we’ve talked about on this thread using the IHMN list-building system, and the skirmish rules are suitably fast-paced and dynamic for a fun game to be played out in just a couple of hours.

The chaps who wrote it have created a website with some summary sheets and extra material that can give you an insight even if you don’t have the rulebook (though I got the rulebook this Christmas so I should be able to answer any questions anyone may have on it).

 

[Scalenex]

I have had the most brilliant idea for implementing a skirmish wargame system for our Westhammer setting!

I skimmed the rules online.

My brain hurts

I created many of own RPGs over the years and I have learned it is far easier to copy an existing rules system (and surprisingly legal or Pathfinder would have been sued into Oblivion) as opposed to creating a new system from scratch.

Though I think paring the rules down so it's just a bunch of people running around hiding behind barrels and rocks shooting at each other is better than riding horses and mechs at least for now.

I will leave the crunchy details in your capable claws and continue to throw fluff at you. Then base my approval on how things incorporate fluff.

Looking over the iconic guns of the Old West, about half the guns that make the list are revolvers.

In my opinion, whatever the rule set, the "default" weapon should be a revolver. Whatever the regular rules for shooting are, revolvers should probably have no special rules.

Rifles would be more damaging and have better effective range, probably be the "best" overall weapons in the game.

Shotguns would be at least as damaging as rifles but probably should have less range and a lower rate of fire because they need to be reloaded more often than revolvers or post-Civil War rifles.

Carbines are more powerful than sidearms but less powerful than rifles. My understanding of the era is that carbines were a common cavalry weapon. I don't think there are many reasons to fight with a cavalry on foot and I think our game should focus on man vs. man combat on foot.

Deringers are very iconic to the Wild West genre but I'm not how well they fit in here because they kind of suck in a traditional gun fight. I think derringers should be represented by a special rule that gives a bonus in the first round of melee combat.

A buffalo rifle I think would be best represented by a slow firing very powerful weapon that requires the firer to have not moved recently in order to fire it. In real life they were the most powerful weapon of the West (apart from artillery of course) but they were expensive and slow to reload.

So, we need baseline rules for revolvers, rifles, shotguns, derringers, maybe carbines and buffalo rifles.

Do the dwarves and elves make better rifles than orcs do? Probably. But in my opinion it would be unnecessarily complicated to have elf rifles, dwarf rifles, orc rifles, and human rifles on the list. It'd be a lot easier to just give orcs a slightly lower ballistic skill (or whatever we call it).

Steam Punk or fantasy variants on guns would probably either give you extra shots, extra damage or extra accuracy.

I don't think bows or blowpipes should be a major thing. I don't think the would be able to compete with firearms unless the Rule of Cool says others. The one advantage bows have is that they are silent, which works well in a video game but I don't think a table top min game could factor in stealth combat very well.

That's my two cents on irons. By the way, we should use the general term "irons" instead of "guns" because old West slang.


Without a stealth system, I don't think Skaven would work as a playable faction, but I thought, what if the Skaven are a third party element.

"Skaven infested" could be a special feature added to terrain pieces. It might be trapped or have assassins or snipers hiding in them. Models near a Skaven infested terrain piece would have to make some kind of saving throw against the terrain piece. So hypothetically if some Orc banditos were fighting Rangos in a Skaven infested ghost town, the Skaven would act as a sort of third party attacking Orcs and Rangos.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Rango Faction: The Rangos remember when the Slann’s will was the only Law in the West and the Old Ones were the only gods. Now some fight to restore the old ways, others simply to survive.

Melee Specialist: Saurus Warrior or maybe Kroxigor
Shooting Specialist: Skink bowmen/gunslinger
Stealth Specialist: Skink hunter
Magic User: Skink Shaman Likely group leader
Generalist: Saurus Hunter
Oddball: Beastmaster Skink and/or dinosaurs

Here’s a an example IHMN roster for Rangos, based on your original roster:
Figure: Skink Priest
Pluck: 4+
FV: +1
SV: +2
Speed: +1
Cost: 46 + Powers
Talents/Powers: Fearless, Leadership +2, Intuitive, Inspirational, up to 20 points of Mystical Powers,
Equipment: Sacrificial Dagger (Fighting Knife), Priest’s Staff (Quarterstaff)

Figure: Saurus Warrior
Pluck: 4+
FV: +3
SV: +0
Speed: +0
Cost: 26
Talents/Powers: Fearless
Equipment: Saurus Club (Axe), Shield, Saurus Scales (Brigandine)

Figure: Skink Fighter
Pluck: 5+
FV: +1
SV: +2
Speed: +1
Cost: 18
Talents/Powers: Intuitive
Equipment: Bow, Skink Club (Club), Skink Scales (Jack)

Figure: Kroxigor
Pluck: 3+
FV: +5
SV: +0
Speed: +0
Cost: 59
Talents/Powers: Fearless, Terrifying, Tough
Equipment: Kroxigor Club (Great Axe), Kroxigor Scales (Chain Shirt)

Figure: Skink Handler
Pluck: 5+
FV: +2
SV: 0
Speed: +1
Cost: 16
Talents/Powers: Intuitive
Equipment: Spear, Skink Scales (Jack)

Figure: Jungle Beast
Pluck: 4+
FV: +4
SV: +3
Speed: +0
Cost: 36
Talents/Powers: Terrifying
Equipment: Claws and Jaws (Fighting Knives)

Upgrades:
Any Saurus Warrior may replace his Saurus Club with a Spear (+1 point)
Any Skink Fighter may replace his bow with two Pistols (+2 points). If he does so, he may take the Gunslinger talent (+5 points)
Each Jungle Beast must take one of the following upgrades:
Salamander Fire (Strongman talent + Flamethrower) (+16 points)
Razordon Barbs (Counts as a thrown Spear but may split fire against multiple targets in the manner of a machine gun or flamethrower) (+15 points)
Any Skink Fighter may ride a Culchan (Horse) (+5 points). If he does so, he may take the Cavalryman talent (+3 points)
Any Rango model may have their non-firearm weapons Poisoned (+8 points per weapon)

 

[Scalenex]

Here’s a an example IHMN roster for Rangos, based on your original roster:
Figure: Skink Priest
Pluck: 4+
FV: +1
SV: +2
Speed: +1
Cost: 46 + Powers
Talents/Powers: Fearless, Leadership +2, Intuitive, Inspirational, up to 20 points of Mystical Powers,
Equipment: Sacrificial Dagger (Fighting Knife), Priest’s Staff (Quarterstaff)

I have questions. While fluff wise such a character is likely to carry a staff and a knife, in game terms is there any reason to carry both?

Any Skink Fighter may replace his bow with two Pistols (+2 points). If he does so, he may take the Gunslinger talent (+5 points)

What is the difference between one pistol and two pistols? What does Gunslinger talent do?

I don't know about realism, but in my mind the Rule of Cool makes me thinks that most characters should be packing irons not bows.

Maybe I'm off base, but from a fluff perspective since the Rangos represent Lizardmen that had to adapt after a major cataclysm, maybe they would have lost Saurus or Kroxigor along the way, because in a gunslinging niche, I'm not sure rangos need both Saurus and Kroxigor. Maybe I'm wrong.

I guess my problem is I'm not 100% sure what I want the "modern" state of Rangos to be, other than I think they should have feathers like modern renditions of dinosaurs rather than be overtly scaly like Jurassic Park dinosaurs and that their power is a fraction of what it was in the World That Was.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I have questions. While fluff wise such a character is likely to carry a staff and a knife, in game terms is there any reason to carry both?

In IHMN, if you roll a natural 1 on a D10 when making hit rolls, this is a Fumble - you have to roll the D10 again and if you get another 1, you can’t use the weapon you are using again for the rest of the battle, representing you dropping it, the weapon breaking during combat or something similar. Carrying more than one weapon allows you to be able to use another weapon if this happens, rather than having to fight unarmed which is a massive disadvantage.

What is the difference between one pistol and two pistols? What does Gunslinger talent do?

Two pistols and the Gunslinger talent allow you to split your fire between multiple enemies, whereas with a single pistol (or two pistols without Gunslinger) you can only shoot a single enemy (in the case of two pistols you’d simply have a spare pistol in case your first one ran out of ammo or jammed, see Fumble above)

I don't know about realism, but in my mind the Rule of Cool makes me thinks that most characters should be packing irons not bows.

Irons?

Maybe I'm off base, but from a fluff perspective since the Rangos represent Lizardmen that had to adapt after a major cataclysm, maybe they would have lost Saurus or Kroxigor along the way, because in a gunslinging niche, I'm not sure rangos need both Saurus and Kroxigor. Maybe I'm wrong.

I guess my problem is I'm not 100% sure what I want the "modern" state of Rangos to be, other than I think they should have feathers like modern renditions of dinosaurs rather than be overtly scaly like Jurassic Park dinosaurs and that their power is a fraction of what it was in the World That Was.

I’d like to have both Saurus and Kroxigors because they’re the cooler elements of the gang and provide some combat muscle. A Company with wall-to-wall Skinks would get pretty boring after a while and would be unforgiving to play.

 

[Scalenex]

Irons?

Iron – Short for branding iron or six-gun.

Like in Back to the Future 3 where Mad Dog Tannon had his guns confiscated the deputy said "Check your irons, gentlemen." (note he sneaked in a derringer).

If I'm going to write a Westhammer fluff piece I'm going to read through this thread at least once before I start writing and at least once before I finish my first rough draft.

I’d like to have both Saurus and Kroxigors because they’re the cooler elements of the gang and provide some combat muscle. A Company with wall-to-wall Skinks would get pretty boring after a while and would be unforgiving to play.

Reasonable. Though I will note a lot of companies are going to have wall-to-wall humans unless we decide to make motley mixed companies the norm.

I'm fine with both, it's just I think carrying a spear and shield would feel a little off to me in the setting aesthetics wise.

When I skimmed the rules of the game I saw you get cover bonuses when standing near certain terrain which I like. If we do have Kroxigor, they should have an impaired ability to hide behind cover because of their huge size. I don't think it should be on WISIWYG because kroxigors (and everything else comes in a wide variety poses). I'd hate to see every choose a crouching model to gain a cheesy advantage.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Iron – Short for branding iron or six-gun.

Like in Back to the Future 3 where Mad Dog Tannon had his guns confiscated the deputy said "Check your irons, gentlemen." (note he sneaked in a derringer).

Fair, though I would like to see a couple of factions pack in more primitive weapons, specifically the Rangos, the Plains Beastmen and the Albion independents, to give a nod to the First Nations in the real world. Bows have their own rules in IHMN and they’ not as powerful as guns in these rules so their primitivity is taken into account.

Reasonable. Though I will note a lot of companies are going to have wall-to-wall humans unless we decide to make motley mixed companies the norm.

I think motley mixed Companies should be the norm, as our Westhammer setting has most of the Fantasy races living side by side.

I’d be happy with one or two all-human companies such as the Order of the Silver Hammer, but I want the fantastical races from Warhammer Fantasy to have a lot of representation, because I feel that if you’re just going to make humans do all the donkey-work in a fantasy setting, what’s the point of having a fantasy setting at all when you could simply make it a generic medieval or western setting? (Game of Thrones, while you’re undeniably a good book and TV series, I’m looking at you).

 

[Scalenex]

I think motley mixed Companies should be the norm, as our Westhammer setting has most of the Fantasy races living side by side.

I agree with principle, I think it would be really cool to assemble motley groups of mixed teams.

I am just concerned that no matter how well built the game and the meta is that there would be a best group.

This might be putting the cart before the horse, but would there be an concrete in-game bonus for taking a humongous team in lieu of an adhoc team? Would there be limitations on who can mix with what? For instance maybe a Kroxigor is not allowed in a non-Rango group without at least one Skink. Maybe a witch hunter or priest will not will work with certain heathen characters at all.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

When I skimmed the rules of the game I saw you get cover bonuses when standing near certain terrain which I like. If we do have Kroxigor, they should have an impaired ability to hide behind cover because of their huge size. I don't think it should be on WISIWYG because kroxigors (and everything else comes in a wide variety poses). I'd hate to see every choose a crouching model to gain a cheesy advantage.

I think cover bonuses in IHMN are applied in the same way as in other games like Warhammer Fantasy - in that game, for example, players don’t get improved chances of being in cover if they happen to have kneeling models in the unit (like some of the Wood Elf Glade Guard and High Elf Archers), otherwise everyone would be buying kneeling models. A Kroxigor model is pretty big anyway (up there with the largest models playable in this game), so cover that would hide a man-sized model wouldn’t be enough to protect a Kroxigor.

If we have to have a concrete rule, I’d say a model can only benefit from cover if at least half of it (when standing) is hidden by the cover, same as in 40K when judging whether units and vehicles can have a cover save.

I agree with principle, I think it would be really cool to assemble motley groups of mixed teams.

I am just concerned that no matter how well built the game and the meta is that there would be a best group.

This might be putting the cart before the horse, but would there be an concrete in-game bonus for taking a humongous team in lieu of an adhoc team? Would there be limitations on who can mix with what? For instance maybe a Kroxigor is not allowed in a non-Rango group without at least one Skink. Maybe a witch hunter or priest will not will work with certain heathen characters at all.

Monstrous Infantry models cost a lot of points because they’re so strong in this game, so a company made up mainly of Monstrous Infantry models would be very small in number compared to a company of infantry models, making the matchup pretty balanced.

However, in one of the Companies defined by the authors, the Black Dragon Tong (based on Chinese Boxer Rebellion cells), they define in the company’s background that rarely more than one Yeti (a Monstrous Infantry size model) can be fielded in the Company, i.e. that only one should be taken in the company when forming a list. If we want to avoid the risk of having potentially OP Monstrous Infantry Companies, we should apply this rule to any and all Companies designed.

As for ‘who can mix with what’ limitations, this is up to us as the creators, because IHMN does allow us to include limitations like this if it fits in the fluff. For the Rango example, given that the Skink Priest is the leader model that you have to take, that already would fulfil the ‘at least one Skink’ rule for Kroxigors. As for the Witch Hunter example, wouldn’t the Order of the Silver Hammer only employ agents that are definitely faithful to Sigmar to avoid any internal conflict?

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Let’s make Vaul a corrupt god of the dark side of Industrialization and Manifest Destiny. Vaul is now a god of greed, pollution and violent assimilation.

Only just saw this and have a question - why spend time reinventing Vaul, when we already have a Warhammer Fantasy god that represents the dark side of industrialisation, in the form of Hashut? The fact that he is often depicted as a bull makes him doubly appropriate for a Western setting.