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AoS Warhammer Weekly NPE Discussion

Kilvakar said:
You mean not relevant at all, lol!

So far AoS is the story of the Stormcast and Elves vs Undead and Chaos. Everyone else is basically just there.
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of course we are relevant. gotrek needs some one to punch for no reason after all.(yes that is the extent of our canon contributions over the last 4 years)
 
Lets be honest. We are too strong to be involved. we have space ships, laser beams, wizards so powerful each is a demi-god in their own right, and mysterious creators in The old ones which are pretty much a different pantheon of Gods themselves.

And then there are the other races. Who have horses and hammers and arrows. If i eas writing fluff I wouldnt use us either unless it was a get out of jail free card, Teclis fails, slaneesh is freed, all seems lost... seraphon come kick slaneesh butt, smack archaeon around a little then leave without saying a word. Stuff like that.
 
Jason839 said:
Lets be honest. We are too strong to be involved. we have space ships, laser beams, wizards so powerful each is a demi-god in their own right, and mysterious creators in The old ones which are pretty much a different pantheon of Gods themselves.

And then there are the other races. Who have horses and hammers and arrows. If i eas writing fluff I wouldnt use us either unless it was a get out of jail free card, Teclis fails, slaneesh is freed, all seems lost... seraphon come kick slaneesh butt, smack archaeon around a little then leave without saying a word. Stuff like that.
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that kinda is negated by us getting the tar beaten out of us by 3 standard order soldiers in our one cannon appearance, but sure i can see people using that excuse to never give us anything fun lore wise.
 
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Erta Wanderer said:
that kinda is negated by us getting the tar beaten out of us by 3 standard order soldiers in our one cannon appearance, but sure i can see people using that excuse to never give us anything fun lore wise.
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It also doesn't help that our only named character worth a damn in AOS is kroak. Man the end times really hosed the seraphon
 
Technically I'm pretty sure none of our named characters were confirmed dead in the End Times (Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just going off of what I can look up, I never read the books). And if I'm not mistaken the Lizardmen are biologically immortal. So it seems perfectly logical to say that characters like Kroq-Gar, Gor-Rok, Oxyotl, etc. could still be alive and be brought out when the Seraphon decide to start taking a more active role in the setting. But therein lies the problem. GW doesn't have a role for us in AoS, we were just a legacy army brought over because they could.
 
Kilvakar said:
Technically I'm pretty sure none of our named characters were confirmed dead in the End Times (Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just going off of what I can look up, I never read the books). And if I'm not mistaken the Lizardmen are biologically immortal. So it seems perfectly logical to say that characters like Kroq-Gar, Gor-Rok, Oxyotl, etc. could still be alive and be brought out when the Seraphon decide to start taking a more active role in the setting. But therein lies the problem. GW doesn't have a role for us in AoS, we were just a legacy army brought over because they could.
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masdamundi was and in the actual book and afterword in a authors overview gor-roc and nakie where confirmed dead. as for the rest oxelotle was traped in the realm of chaos but every one else should be fine
 
Oh yeah, I remembered Mazdamundi dying but I forgot to include him, lol!

Never heard about the authors confirming Gor-Rok and Nakai dying though. *sad lizard noises* I thought Oxyotl was trapped in the Chaos realm before and came back? Or did he get sucked in there again during the End Times?
 
Kilvakar said:
Oh yeah, I remembered Mazdamundi dying but I forgot to include him, lol!

Never heard about the authors confirming Gor-Rok and Nakai dying though. *sad lizard noises* I thought Oxyotl was trapped in the Chaos realm before and came back? Or did he get sucked in there again during the End Times?
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sucked in there during the end times. there where a lot of factions and characters who didn't make it into the endtime and so the righters did a rundown of the people who didn't make a appearance OXyotl was at the northpole when the worlds fell and got pulled into the same portal that gotrek when into. Gor-Rok and Nakai went down fighting back to back at the golden city when it fell to the vermin horde
 
Kilvakar said:
Oh yeah, I remembered Mazdamundi dying but I forgot to include him, lol!

Never heard about the authors confirming Gor-Rok and Nakai dying though. *sad lizard noises* I thought Oxyotl was trapped in the Chaos realm before and came back? Or did he get sucked in there again during the End Times?
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Nakai died from the mutated plague bone ripper sized rat ogre. He ripped the rat ogre In half and he succumbed to the plague I thought. Gor Rok literally got buried in rat corpses
 
I don't think they'll release any old special character and say "Hey, do you remember X,here is it". I could only see the chameleon one and Tehen because their mini are not used in the army for whatever reason. But even so, I highly doubt about Tehen as he's a double-tailed Skink; if they don't give him a Trog, we riot.

I'm saying that any character has a replacement in a regular hero. Any special move, weapon or feature they had is on the hero carrying their legacy. Even that, I'm not saying they won't releasy any new character or bring back an idea they had, like a Slann on a Stegadon and calling him Idnumadzam.

If they wanted to keep our characters, they wouldn't have died so pityfully. Kroq-Gar was here since 6Ed and was beloved by anyone.
 
As far as we know, only those three are dead, and to be frank, they went out in blazes of glory. Mazdamundi literally bringing the moon down on Lustria, Gor Rok dying under a literal tide of rats, and Nakai being a beast. As unfortunate as it is to lose them, they went out killing chaos, as they would have wanted.

I do definitely want to see some more heros come back, even as standard heros, like a Krox ancient, slann on steg, chameleon skink hero. Giving skink chiefs the terradon and ripper treatment was a delight, and I'd like to see priests/starpriests get the ability to take them as well. But thats likely not to happen.
 
Carnikang said:
As far as we know, only those three are dead, and to be frank, they went out in blazes of glory. Mazdamundi literally bringing the moon down on Lustria, Gor Rok dying under a literal tide of rats, and Nakai being a beast. As unfortunate as it is to lose them, they went out killing chaos, as they would have wanted.

I do definitely want to see some more heros come back, even as standard heros, like a Krox ancient, slann on steg, chameleon skink hero. Giving skink chiefs the terradon and ripper treatment was a delight, and I'd like to see priests/starpriests get the ability to take them as well. But thats likely not to happen.
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The only one that is confusing that isn't here in my opinion is kroq gar. We got nothing on his whereabouts especially since he was ordered by maz to return to the space pyramids
 
I gave Vince's video a watch for around an.hour and a half (just the analysis section) and a few things stand out.

1. He doesn't seem to differentiate between casual play and competitive play, or any of the inbetweens. This is important because we don't see the spreads negative play experiences (npe) with more competitive armies vs casual. Also, we don't see how much of Vince's respondents fit in either category and it could make a difference.

2. He asked people to look 2 years back. While I get why, he wanted to factor in covid, this is bad for two major reasons.
A. AoS is a constantly evolving game. If someone had a npe with and older ruleset (faq, battletome, generals handbook, etc) that would spoil the conclusions Vince is reaching in his video. He talked as if all the data comes from the most recent games when in reality 23% of the npe's could be from 2019 games. Is it fair to judge a faction by a npe right now if some bad rules got faq'd 6 months ago? Which leads me to my next point.
B. Human memory is incredibly fickle. Try to think back to an AoS game you played over one year ago and ask, who went first on round one? Round two? Human memory tends to blur things long term and your play experiences may not remembered as well you think.

3. I'll bet you a grilled cheese that a solid chunk of these games are on TTS. Since you're not playing in person, and we all know how people are when your anonymous, you're more likey to be a dick online then in person. On top of that, TTS isn't built to play AoS very well. Clunky physics, bugs, models getting toss by accident, could factor into a npe that you wouldn't get in person. Also, you do lose some of the magic of not having your opponent in front of you. I'll bet online play increased npe.

Final note:

While I don't think Vince's video is bad per say(he says some rude things in there at times depending on the faction) and he does have some useful stats, I think there are some noticeable gaps in there that make me take his results with a grain of salt. I left some feedback on his vid so hopefully their a bit better in the future.
 
LordBaconBane said:
A. AoS is a constantly evolving game. If someone had a npe with and older ruleset (faq, battletome, generals handbook, etc) that would spoil the conclusions Vince is reaching in his video. He talked as if all the data comes from the most recent games when in reality 23% of the npe's could be from 2019 games. Is it fair to judge a faction by a npe right now if some bad rules got faq'd 6 months ago?
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Yes I'm quoting myself but I think this is relevant. I couldn't find when Vince posted the survey but I'm going to assume Feb 1st (it was streamed on Feb 3rd) for arguments sake. Since he left a 2 year gap, that means that the survey takes into account Feb 2019 to Feb 2021. If we roll back all the way to Feb 2019, the 2020 Generals handbook wasn't out then. So Vince is taking into account 4 months of pure 2018 rules. That means 16% of what he is using as data is from rules that are drastically different from now. And then he had one full year of 2019 rules. (From June 2019 to June 2020). So 16 of the 24 months are rules that are potentially not up to date causing npe's, which begs the question, if those npe's have been addressed via faq's, generals handbooks, new battletomes, etc, then should those count? Should they represent the state of the game right now? (A question he does ask).

The only reason I can see extending the timeframe to two years is not to compare it to what army but what mechanics cause npe, which he does do and I really like in the video. Imo that's my favorite part. It's too easy to say, "Seraphon op plz nerf", instead of looking into the mechanics of why they're op and how that contributes to a npe. For example, Vince found that 50% of the npe's was actually from shooting, and which list does Seraphon run that includes a shit tonne of shooting? High armor saves/lots of rerolling saves is another on the list (24% of all npe) and guess what got pegged down in the 2020 handbook (accounting for 1/3rd of the survey play time)... ward saves.
 
Putzfrau said:
Skinks should have a max unit size of 20 (or lose the extra attack horde bonus) and go up 10 points per 10. Skink priests should be 90 points. Kroak should be 380, but he'll probably be over 400 because honestly he shouldn't be allied into other armies. Maybe give him a special rule.

We'd still be very competitive with the above changes.
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I don't think you should limit skinks to 20, they're supposed to be the most common Seraphon unit so limiting is a no. A 10 point increase, easy yes. A priest could be 90, but I think their squishyness earns them a +10 instead. Kroak at 380? Yup. He's that good.

What I would like to see however (and this is controversial but whatever) is see the warscroll get split into two. Skinks with shields and clubs should be one warscroll worth 60 points and the shooting variant should be 70 or 80. I know that sounds really weird but there isn't really a good reason to pay the points for melee skinks atm.

As a side note, give the Trog a CA and replace the Eternity Warden CA.
 
LordBaconBane said:
I don't think you should limit skinks to 20, they're supposed to be the most common Seraphon unit so limiting is a no. A 10 point increase, easy yes. A priest could be 90, but I think their squishyness earns them a +10 instead. Kroak at 380? Yup. He's that good.

What I would like to see however (and this is controversial but whatever) is see the warscroll get split into two. Skinks with shields and clubs should be one warscroll worth 60 points and the shooting variant should be 70 or 80. I know that sounds really weird but there isn't really a good reason to pay the points for melee skinks atm.

As a side note, give the Trog a CA and replace the Eternity Warden CA.
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The problem is the number of shots a unit of 40 has, with the buffs you can give it. A unit of 20 shooting 40 times wouldn't be nearly as scary or make as good of use of the buffs.

Changing their point cost is just going to make armies have less toys not make skinks fundamentally balanced. If we want skinks to be balanced compared to other choices in the book the number of shots simply has to go down.

A fangs list with all those changes is still functionally the same list with the same problems it just doesn't destroy as hard because you're giving up like, one salamander or something stupid.
 
LordBaconBane said:
3. I'll bet you a grilled cheese that a solid chunk of these games are on TTS. Since you're not playing in person, and we all know how people are when your anonymous, you're more likey to be a dick online then in person. On top of that, TTS isn't built to play AoS very well. Clunky physics, bugs, models getting toss by accident, could factor into a npe that you wouldn't get in person. Also, you do lose some of the magic of not having your opponent in front of you. I'll bet online play increased npe.
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Do you play online? If you don't, you shouldn't be making negative, baseless assumptions about an entire group of people that you clearly aren't interacting with.

I play a ton of TTS and have never had a bad experience. It doesn't increase the likelihood of people being a dick. The amount of hate TTS gets on this forum is crap.

If you don't like it don't use it, but try not to shit on everyone who does in the process.
 
Putzfrau said:
Do you play online? If you don't, you shouldn't be making negative, baseless assumptions about an entire group of people that you clearly aren't interacting with.

I play a ton of TTS and have never had a bad experience. It doesn't increase the likelihood of people being a dick. The amount of hate TTS gets on this forum is crap.

If you don't like it don't use it, but try not to shit on everyone who does in the process.
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Dude, relax. I didn't shit on everyone that plays TTS and I'm sorry if it came off that way. I simply pointed out some flaws in Vince's data which is:
  1. It doesn't take into account the differences in play from TTS to tabletop (Clunky physics, bugs, models getting tossed by accident, base scale might not be perfect between mods causing interaction problems, lack of inperson dialogue (most of human communication is body language)). People may take a bad experience with TTS the system and add that onto a bad experience when playing against an army of a certain type.
  2. It is a well documented fact that people are more likely to be toxic online. (I mean, you getting upset over my innocuous comment is a prime example. I never shat on TTS once, just simply pointed out some potential problems that could factor into npe). You may not have experienced any online toxicity (which is good) but we need to accept the possibility that there are things people may say or do on TTS they wouldn't do on TT (or vice versa) that could impact Vince's data.
I have played online and it was a negative experience, but not due to the armies I was facing against. It was bland, boring, and not fun (I have friends here that think the same). The physics of the models is clunky, you lose the magic of rolling the dice yourself, there is a lot of fun in looking at your opponents army and seeing it all painted and junk. And again, if you like it, then great! I wouldn't ever want to poop on your fun, that's not my intent. Just pointing out what I think.
 
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