AoS Warhammer Weekly NPE Discussion

[cyberhawk94]

uuum all of those only changed when a new book came out the OBR main rule book and broken realms morathy respectively. the only time GW has changed a warscroll out side of a book release was plague monks.

Well then they did for plague monks lol

And the Idoneth ones I'd still count, since it wasn't in a "Idoneth Battletome"

Plus they've done it in 40k a few times

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Well then they did for plague monks lol

And the Idoneth ones I'd still count, since it wasn't in a "Idoneth Battletome"

Plus they've done it in 40k a few times

one rather outstanding exeption does not make a rule. and no IDK does not count the reason for Broken realms is to make changes

 

[Jason839]

now that new lumineth and DoK are out, it might be best to wait on this discussion. I have a feeling these armies are going to be really tough for us and the points mentioned before may prove outdated.

 

[Kilvakar]

now that new lumineth and DoK are out, it might be best to wait on this discussion. I have a feeling these armies are going to be really tough for us and the points mentioned before may prove outdated.

Exactly. Newer armies are getting serious powercreep and soon the meta will be very different than it currently is. Plus, many people are assuming that AoS Third Edition is coming out in the next couple of years, so things will probably change even more drastically in the near future.

Speaking of Broken Realms, though, I really wonder what we'll get. I know we won't be the focus of a book since they're all about named characters, but like with Idoneth the "side factions" can obviously get some pretty good stuff. I'm really curious to see how they decide to work us into the actual plot when our turn comes around...

 

[Carnikang]

As @Jason839 said, with Dok and Lumineth coming out in full force, it will definitely change the dynamic of the game.

I wont lie, the DoK builds look really threatening in my opinion, and Lumineth is already able to compete with their half/third of a book they received. How will that affect the health of the game and what other sort of bad experiences will they bring to the mid-low end tables?

Bringing it back to the original discussion in essence, not the skink tangent, but what about them do you believe will be most NPE for us? For people in general?

I know @Erta Wanderer and @LizardWizard talked a little about this on their podcast here while they were reviewing the DoK battletome.

 

[Dread Saurian]

Why does unit size ever get brought up? In current state it doesn't matter if you half it at all. Skinks cost the same.

In order to properly alleviate SOME of it you'd leave the cost of the minimum numbet of skinks in a squad the same and increase the cost of extra units even more so to make it a little less appealing to take more than the minimum. But it would kind of be moot since that would just mean a lot of small squads of skinks.

Hmm how to fix? Maybe force them to have to complete a cohort before being able to get another unit of skinks? That would seem like overkill wouldn't it? But it would make going saurus a little more appealing IMHO

 

[Putzfrau]

Why does unit size ever get brought up? In current state it doesn't matter if you half it at all. Skinks cost the same.

In order to properly alleviate SOME of it you'd leave the cost of the minimum numbet of skinks in a squad the same and increase the cost of extra units even more so to make it a little less appealing to take more than the minimum. But it would kind of be moot since that would just mean a lot of small squads of skinks.

Hmm how to fix? Maybe force them to have to complete a cohort before being able to get another unit of skinks? That would seem like overkill wouldn't it? But it would make going saurus a little more appealing IMHO

The biggest problem with skinks is how well they take buffs. Bigger units make buffs better. So you make the unit smaller.

It also ensures seraphon armies that rely on skinks to screen or skink heroes to buff don't suffer like they would with just flat point increases to those units.

I don't know if its necessarily the best solution. I just like how it targets the most obnoxious seraphon builds without punishing others.

 

[Kilvakar]

I think if you did reduce the unit size you'd also have to make it so that they got the extra shots in a unit of 10 or more, because losing half your damage after taking five wounds (assuming a 20 max unit size) is terrible in a game with so much shooting.

 

[Dread Saurian]

I think if you did reduce the unit size you'd also have to make it so that they got the extra shots in a unit of 10 or more, because losing half your damage after taking five wounds (assuming a 20 max unit size) is terrible in a game with so much shooting.

That would probably be the worst decision to make ever in regards to skinks if we are being honest. The point isn't to make them more potent for their cost. It's to make it reasonable for others to pick saurus or guard

 

[Jason839]

That would probably be the worst decision to make ever in regards to skinks if we are being honest. The point isn't to make them more potent for their cost. It's to make it reasonable for others to pick saurus or guard

I think the best way to accomplish that goal is the rework guard and warriors and their accompanying support heroes and battalions, not to nerf all the other stuff. Heywhoah is always describing our book as the choose your own adventure style. And I agree. Pick your playstyle, pick the constellation and battalion rules that benefit it, pick the units that do well in that style, fill rest of points with utility. This works amazing for 80% of the book. But for some reason when they came to warriors and guard, they just punted. The book lacks good rules to support the anvil/elite infantry roles warriors and guard are supposed to play. These warscrolls were obviously intended to be buffed, and so they are not amazing on their own. So you are left with something kinda meh in the book. Buff these to be synergistic and better, and I will happily dust off my 120 warriors and 60 guard from fantasy days. Until then I wont take them. Because they are fundamentally broken in the since that they do not work as intended. They dont tank, they dont do damage, they are slow, inaccurate, and expensive. Fix these flaws and Ill be tempted to bring them.

 

[Dread Saurian]

I think the best way to accomplish that goal is the rework guard and warriors and their accompanying support heroes and battalions, not to nerf all the other stuff. Heywhoah is always describing our book as the choose your own adventure style. And I agree. Pick your playstyle, pick the constellation and battalion rules that benefit it, pick the units that do well in that style, fill rest of points with utility. This works amazing for 80% of the book. But for some reason when they came to warriors and guard, they just punted. The book lacks good rules to support the anvil/elite infantry roles warriors and guard are supposed to play. These warscrolls were obviously intended to be buffed, and so they are not amazing on their own. So you are left with something kinda meh in the book. Buff these to be synergistic and better, and I will happily dust off my 120 warriors and 60 guard from fantasy days. Until then I wont take them. Because they are fundamentally broken in the since that they do not work as intended. They dont tank, they dont do damage, they are slow, inaccurate, and expensive. Fix these flaws and Ill be tempted to bring them.

I wholeheartedly yet begrudgingly agree to an extent. Bare minimum IMHO for regular saurus they need at a minimum of an extra wound. And for if we're talking about guard basically treat them like terminators and booya we got an elite that is ferocious for everything even if the cost is increased

 

[Erta Wanderer]

As @Jason839 said, with Dok and Lumineth coming out in full force, it will definitely change the dynamic of the game.

I wont lie, the DoK builds look really threatening in my opinion, and Lumineth is already able to compete with their half/third of a book they received. How will that affect the health of the game and what other sort of bad experiences will they bring to the mid-low end tables?

Bringing it back to the original discussion in essence, not the skink tangent, but what about them do you believe will be most NPE for us? For people in general?

I know @Erta Wanderer and @LizardWizard talked a little about this on their podcast here while they were reviewing the DoK battletome.

DoK can and will kill anything it hits and it's good at hitting. depending on how good a player you are that will be the most NPE. for the good players that @#$% teleporting battalions will be. as much as people complain about our free teleport they can do it for their entire army and they can be a 2 drop

 

[Putzfrau]

DoK can and will kill anything it hits and it's good at hitting. depending on how good a player you are that will be the most NPE. for the good players that @#$% teleporting battalions will be. as much as people complain about our free teleport they can do it for their entire army and they can be a 2 drop

What battalion is that? Shadow patrol?

Teleporting harpies is pretty nasty. Not sure how you make a list a two drop with it tho, it seems pretty limited on units.

I think the best way to accomplish that goal is the rework guard and warriors and their accompanying support heroes and battalions, not to nerf all the other stuff. Heywhoah is always describing our book as the choose your own adventure style. And I agree. Pick your playstyle, pick the constellation and battalion rules that benefit it, pick the units that do well in that style, fill rest of points with utility. This works amazing for 80% of the book. But for some reason when they came to warriors and guard, they just punted. The book lacks good rules to support the anvil/elite infantry roles warriors and guard are supposed to play. These warscrolls were obviously intended to be buffed, and so they are not amazing on their own. So you are left with something kinda meh in the book. Buff these to be synergistic and better, and I will happily dust off my 120 warriors and 60 guard from fantasy days. Until then I wont take them. Because they are fundamentally broken in the since that they do not work as intended. They dont tank, they dont do damage, they are slow, inaccurate, and expensive. Fix these flaws and Ill be tempted to bring them.

IMO, the problem with warriors is they are mad slow. If there was any way to give them run and charge warriors would be nasty. They have a super efficient profile just from their wounds/save/attacks.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

What battalion is that? Shadow patrol?

Teleporting harpies is pretty nasty. Not sure how you make a list a two drop with it tho, it seems pretty limited on units.

yep 1 hero and then 2 full doomfire squads and 2 full harpy and 1 half harpy can be a 2 drop. or you can go 4 drop and run 3 battalions. it can be a nasty tempo list

 

[Putzfrau]

yep 1 hero and then 2 full doomfire squads and 2 full harpy and 1 half harpy can be a 2 drop. or you can go 4 drop and run 3 battalions. it can be a nasty tempo list

Sounds fun to play, but doomfire warlocks are not great. Feels like that's a ton of tax to be lowish drop and you lose out on so much of what makes dok good. I'd be way more concerned about the more traditional DoK lists. Big combat blocks, lots of supporting heroes, and a handful of supporting units like harpies or shadowstalkers.

A whole army teleporting is always going to be a fun trick, I just don't know if it's worth what you're giving up. I haven't played against new daughters yet tho so, not super experienced with the new tome yet.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Sounds fun to play, but doomfire warlocks are not great. Feels like that's a ton of tax to be lowish drop and you lose out on so much of what makes dok good. I'd be way more concerned about the more traditional DoK lists. Big combat blocks, lots of supporting heroes, and a handful of supporting units like harpies or shadowstalkers.

A whole army teleporting is always going to be a fun trick, I just don't know if it's worth what you're giving up. I haven't played against new daughters yet tho so, not super experienced with the new tome yet.

what? doom fires are great each unit is a +1 caster that can take spells, their bound spell is good, 14" move that they can make after they teleport, ok range damage and solid melee damage. they are wizards favorite DoK unit and if i could leave behind the harpies to take more of them i would

 

[Kilvakar]

Bringing it back to the original discussion in essence, not the skink tangent, but what about them do you believe will be most NPE for us? For people in general?

From all the battlereports I've seen with Lumineth, Teclis and the archers are definitely up there in terms of NPE. Most armies can't do anything about Teclis when it comes to magic, and archer spam with a 30in. range ignoring LoS means your heroes won't survive for long. I imagine that when all the new Lumineth units come out they'll have even more non-interactive shenanigans to throw at their opponents. With so many of them being mages, Lumineth are, imo, almost certainly going to vastly outpace Seraphon in terms of magic superiority.

DoK are going to wreck unskilled players or lower to mid-tier armies. They can do pretty much anything well. Their new book makes them extremely flexible, they have great buffs and they get stronger each turn. But their basic playstyle is still "charge you turn 1 and wipe whatever they charge." But on top of that they have great spells, good shooting, and surprisingly good survivability with their ward saves.

For Seraphon specifically, I do think DoK are going to be a massive pain in the butt unless you're only playing FoS Skink spam+Kroaknado. Our builds that don't have overwatch+retreat already really don't like "charge you turn 1 and wipe you" armies, and DoK definitely seems geared toward this playstyle. Morathi having the C'tan rule that basically says "you can't kill me until turn 4-5" is going to be a problem specifically for us, because we rely on bursting down key targets like her and she just doesn't allow it.

 

[Putzfrau]

what? doom fires are great each unit is a +1 caster that can take spells, their bound spell is good, 14" move that they can make after they teleport, ok range damage and solid melee damage. they are wizards favorite DoK unit and if i could leave behind the harpies to take more of them i would

We might have to agree to disagree on that one lol. I'm personally not a fan compared to what else you can spend your points on. I just dont think you take them over most other units. Their damage is really, really low compared to everything else, they have almost no range on their spell or their shooting and they die to a stiff breeze, but i can see units of 10 having some interesting utility.

They also can definitely not move after teleporting.

 

[Carnikang]

Do we have the exact wording of the Battalion ability? Does it specify one unit, or a unit, Instead of moving, etc.

It seems very good for being annoying, even if they cannot move after teleporting. They will be all over the board, and just a general projection of force while the rest of the Army does stuff.

 

[Dread Saurian]

From all the battlereports I've seen with Lumineth, Teclis and the archers are definitely up there in terms of NPE. Most armies can't do anything about Teclis when it comes to magic, and archer spam with a 30in. range ignoring LoS means your heroes won't survive for long. I imagine that when all the new Lumineth units come out they'll have even more non-interactive shenanigans to throw at their opponents. With so many of them being mages, Lumineth are, imo, almost certainly going to vastly outpace Seraphon in magic superiority

What? I get that they can snipe our heroes but they really arnt that bad to face off against in magic since ya know our slanns and kroak are you know. Potent?