8th Ed. Vs. Empire

[RipperDerek]

Suppose, for a second, you were going up against this Empire list:

=====================
Level 4 Wizard Lord w/ Hurricanum (L)

12x Inner-Circle Knights w/FC (C)
12x Inner-Circle Knights w/FC (C)

5x Demigryph Knights (S)
5x Demigryph Knights (S)
5x Demigryph Knights (S)

1x Steam Tank (R)
1x Steam Tank (R)
=====================
2500pts

Also suppose that you only have one goal: to beat this army with Lizardmen. If you were focused on specifically countering just this one list, what would you bring? How would you tackle it?

 

[The Hunted]

Hmm...

Now this is not the game-winner I think. But it's a start. I guess it's something everybody thinks at some point anyway

So:

Slann Mage Priest - Lore of Metal
BSB
Harmonic Convergence
Channeling Staff
Soul of Stone
Reservoir of Eldricht Energy

Scar-veteran
Carnosaur
Charmed Shield
Light Armour
Shield

Core:
5x10 skirmishers Javelin/Sh

50 Skinks FC

8 Kroxigor

3 rippers

Ancient Stegadon - Sharpened Horns
Ancient Stegadon - Sharpened Horns

(2510 points)

General idea:
5 units of skirmishers to block your opponent. More skirmishers are likely to get in the way of eachother, hence 1 big steadfast block of skinks.

Stegadons and Kroxigor are the most suited for taking on tough, multiwound targets. The scar-veteran also sits in this spot.
The rippers are just there to go wizard-hunting. Could be dropped for more protection on the Scar-Vet and/or more skinks (maybe 2 big steadfast blocks?)

The Slann has all the toys to go wild with the Lore of Metal, which is the best lore when facing that list. Just a quick question: I'm not up-to-date on all the Stank special rules, but is it vulnerable to the Lore of Metal hits?

Now this is far, far from perfect. But I'm intrigued by this question and curious to how people would 'solve' it. This is my first draft. Open to suggestions, ideas and ofcourse discussion!

The Hunted

 

[Scalenex]

This is how I would do it

Slann, BSB, Standard of Discipline, Wandering Deliberations, Reservoir of Eldritch Energy, Harmonic Convergence, Channeling Staff, Iron Curse Icon

Scar Veteran, Armor of Destiny, Great Weapon
Skink Priest, Forbidden Rod, Opal Amulet
Skink Priest, Dispel Scroll

37 Saurus with FC and spears
3 x 10 Skirmishers with Javelins and Shields and Patrol Leader

30 Temple Guard, Musician, Champion with Warrior Bane, SB with Razor Standard

2 x Ancient Stegadons with Sharpened Horns and Unstoppable Stampede


My goal would be to cast Spirit Leech and Searing Doom every turn to melt the STANKs then the Chicken Knights. The Skink Priests are there to help aim them. There is an extra Skirmisher unit in case you need an expendable redirector.

You obviously can't magic everything to death. The Temple Guard are hitting at S5 with armor piercing. That will do fairly well against your enemies, even better with Wyssans. The Spear Saurus will do similar but they will rely on Wyssans more for the volume of attacks. I figured spears since the Empire is more likely to get the charge on you. If you can manage to get the charge with your Steggies they should be able to put serious damage to the STANKs and chickens.

Iceshard will reduce the effectiveness of the various knights in hitting you and make you harder to shoot with the STANKs in the early game. Wyssans will be handy once fights have begun. Melkoth Miasma can help you swing fights AND slow down knights. Earthblood will make your TG more hard wearing and let you heal a few wounds on the Steggies.

I thought about taking a Skink chief on a flyer to kill the Hurricanum but it would be far too easy for a Heavens caster to knock him down.

 

[RipperDerek]

I am still working on this puzzle myself. However, some things to note:

- A Scar-Vet on Carnosaur actually matches up against the Demigryphs pretty poorly. They will, on average, kill the carnosaur in round 2 of combat, and then stomp the scar-vet to death. The Carnosaur will only get one round of attacks off, which statistically will kill one and injure another, but it's not a good trade.

- Ancient Stegadons kill one Demigryph on average from impact hits (3.75 wounds). During combat, steg does 1 wound, and the demigryphs do 1 wound. Demigryph's are steadfast first round, and win every other round by 1 thanks to standard. After 5 rounds, Stegadon is dead, if it even managed to stay.

- Statsitically, a group of 6 Kroxigors against 5 demigryphs appears to be a coinflip. 7 or more Krox will win combat consistently.

- Against almost any number of spear saurus, the demigryphs will deal on average 6-7 wounds, while taking only 1 in return. They will win every combat against our core.

- Against temple guard, the demigryphs will deal still 6-7 wounds, but will take 2 in return instead. If you also get off Wyssans, a 6 wide unit of temple guard with +3 ranks will win combat (just barely).

- The big Searing doom kills an average of 2 demigryphs, and forces a panic test. It also wrecks the steam tank. It can of course be dispelled, but going for an irresistable Searing Doom on a Steam Tank early on seems like a good plan to me.

 

[Shadoer]

Personally,

Lord
===========
Slann BSB
Skavenpelt Banner
Wandering Deliberations
Becalming Cogitation
Harmonic Convergence
Channeling Staff

Hero
========

Skink Priest Lvl 1 - Lore of Beasts, Dispel Scroll

Skink Priest Lvl 1 - Lore of Beasts, Cloak of Feathers

Core
========

25 Saurus Warriors with Spears

25 Saurus Warriors with Spears

10 Skink Coherts

10 Skink Coherts

Special
========

21 Templeguard, Full Command with the Razor Standard

3 - Ripperdactyls

3 - Ripperdactyls

Baby Steg with Sharpened Hornes

Baby Steg with Sharpened Hornes


Ok here's the method to my insane list

1. Slann / Temple Guard Skaevenpelt combo

We now have a unit of 21 Templeguard that are Frenzy and have Armor Piercing, this should be able to deal with the Knights easy enough and possibly some units of Demigriphs.

2. Wandering Deliberations Slann

The reason for this over the Lore of Metal and High Magic is that the sig spells give tremendous benefits for this match up. Searing Doom from Metal and Spirit Leach from Death are both great at nailing down Demigriphs and the wonderful Skink Priests should get the angles you need to get the shots in. Plus Life's Regen will make your Temple Guard much better at dealing with this armor mess in Close Combat.

3. Skink Coherts

We need them, we need them to redirect and slow down as much as we can. It is imperitive that some portions of the Empire list reaches our lines a turn later then the other part, or are delayed. The more delays, the better.

4. Ripperdactyls

In this matchup, I think they'd be a dod send. Since those Knights of the Inner Circle have I3, they will simil hit with the ripperdactyle. That and so long as the Rippers charge first, the Knights will have a str 4 it to strike back with. Odds are the Rippers (privoded bloat toads are placed on them) should take down enough knights that even though the Rippers will be taken down eventually... they'll take down so many of the Knights that they won't be a real threat. That and if you manage to buff the Rippers, well there's a good chance they'll beat down the Knights and can be redirected at the Gryphs.

5. Steggadons

The reason I'm going for the baby stegs is I want the bolt throwers. As the enemy force is coming in, I want as many turns as possible firing bolts at either the Steam Tank or the Gryphs. Then when they come into range, then the Stegs can Charge.

6. Steam Tanks

Bascially every chance I have to fire off Searing Doom and Spirit Leach at a Steam Tank, well I'm taking it. Every bolt fired from my steg is heading towards a Steam Tank.

Otherwise the priority of the Stegadons and my Temple Guard will be taking down the Demi Gryphs. My Saurus with Spears will be aimed at the Inner Circle Knights

7. Skink Priests and Saurus

Main reason I'm taking lore of beasts is to keep casting Wildform on the Saurus blocks of 25. It's the best way to give the Saurus a fighting chance against the Demigriphs and the Inner-Circle Knights. Otherwise, a 25 block should be able to remain stubborn for a bit.


Ok there's my solution, and I'm quite confident it would work

 

[RipperDerek]

I ran the numbers, and unfortunately, I don't think it works.

- Rippers do lose against knights in first round of combat - 3.5 wounds to 4.5, they have a standard but you have a charge. In the second round of combat, two of your three rippers are dead, the remaining one isn't frenzied, and there are still 9 knights in the unit.

25 Spear saurus seem to do just fine against the knights, however. They knights will inflict a lot of wounds the turn they charge, but you'll be steadfast, and you'll win future rounds of combat against them (by 1 on the average) thanks to ranks.

- Baby steg bowshots tend to hit on 5s, wound on 3s, do 2 wounds. That's an average of 0.44 wounds per turn per steg against the demigryphs.

- Matching up the Saurus against demigryphs I don't think is a good plan. You can't guarantee Wyssan's on your Saurus every turn, and even with it you're losing 5-6 saurus a turn to the demigryphs while only doing 2 wounds back. They will mulch through the Saurus after a couple rounds of combat. You might be able to win a round of combat if you get off Wyssan's AND get in a flank charge with the baby steg, but S5 impact hits only do 2 wounds on average (doesn't even kill 1 gryph). Also...

- Steam tanks will probably kill the baby stegs, and then ram your units. Meanwhile, the knights (who killed the rippers earlier) will also ram anything that looks like it might hold.

The good news is, the decked out temple guard unit would actually win against the demigryphs as-is if they only had more models. The higher initiative and armor piercing on the Demigryphs means you'll lose 12 of them before you get your second round of strikes in. However, if you do manage to get off any magical buff (regen, wyssan's, miasma, HOG, etc)., they will win that round of combat.

 

[The Hunted]

I ran the numbers, and unfortunately, I don't think it works.

- Rippers do lose against knights in first round of combat - 3.5 wounds to 4.5, they have a standard but you have a charge. In the second round of combat, two of your three rippers are dead, the remaining one isn't frenzied, and there are still 9 knights in the unit.

25 Spear saurus seem to do just fine against the knights, however. They knights will inflict a lot of wounds the turn they charge, but you'll be steadfast, and you'll win future rounds of combat against them (by 1 on the average) thanks to ranks.

- Baby steg bowshots tend to hit on 5s, wound on 3s, do 2 wounds. That's an average of 0.44 wounds per turn per steg against the demigryphs.

- Matching up the Saurus against demigryphs I don't think is a good plan. You can't guarantee Wyssan's on your Saurus every turn, and even with it you're losing 5-6 saurus a turn to the demigryphs while only doing 2 wounds back. They will mulch through the Saurus after a couple rounds of combat. You might be able to win a round of combat if you get off Wyssan's AND get in a flank charge with the baby steg, but S5 impact hits only do 2 wounds on average (doesn't even kill 1 gryph). Also...

- Steam tanks will probably kill the baby stegs, and then ram your units. Meanwhile, the knights (who killed the rippers earlier) will also ram anything that looks like it might hold.

The good news is, the decked out temple guard unit would actually win against the demigryphs as-is if they only had more models. The higher initiative and armor piercing on the Demigryphs means you'll lose 12 of them before you get your second round of strikes in. However, if you do manage to get off any magical buff (regen, wyssan's, miasma, HOG, etc)., they will win that round of combat.

Problem with Saurus and TG is that you cannot guarantee to get them into the desired matchups. The IC knights, Demi's and even the Stank are all faster than your Saurus/TG, so they decide where they will charge and what units they will mulch.
You need to be able to make sure that you get the matchups you want, or destroy them from range. Or even do enough damage from range, that they have to get into combat ASAP no matter what matchup or else they will be destroyed from range.

The Hunted

 

[Lizardmatt]

Wow, that's really not a fun list t go against.
If he's going with Scissors, take "The Rock."


Slaan, BSB, banner of discipline, wandering deliberations, reserve of energy, soul stone, harmonic, and the pyramid of itza (folding fortress).
9 Skink Priest, 1 with cloak of feathers, 1 with iron curse icon.

2x10 skinks cohorts
100 skink cohorts, poison attacks, full command, 10 kroxigor

2399 points deploys inside the bunker (slaan + 9 priests, + huge cohort).
100 points deploys outside.

In the magic phase, you've got 12 channel attempts.
You go for boost shems for the S6 hits, boosted spirit leech. Skinks throw dice at chain lightning and thunderbolt (more S6 hits).
Nothing in his army has a chance at taking a building, the knight get off their hoses and get pasted by the krox. The demigryph get of their mount and get pasted by the krox. Steam tanks can only fire the cannon in, and hit D6 models.


It will be a very short, boring game. After you win (kill any unit of his, and he cannot win), suggest he builds a more well rounded list that's more fun.

-Matt

 

[The Hunted]

Wow, that's really not a fun list t go against.
If he's going with Scissors, take "The Rock."


Slaan, BSB, banner of discipline, wandering deliberations, reserve of energy, soul stone, harmonic, and the pyramid of itza (folding fortress).
9 Skink Priest, 1 with cloak of feathers, 1 with iron curse icon.

2x10 skinks cohorts
100 skink cohorts, poison attacks, full command, 10 kroxigor

2399 points deploys inside the bunker (slaan + 9 priests, + huge cohort).
100 points deploys outside.

In the magic phase, you've got 12 channel attempts.
You go for boost shems for the S6 hits, boosted spirit leech. Skinks throw dice at chain lightning and thunderbolt (more S6 hits).
Nothing in his army has a chance at taking a building, the knight get off their hoses and get pasted by the krox. The demigryph get of their mount and get pasted by the krox. Steam tanks can only fire the cannon in, and hit D6 models.


It will be a very short, boring game. After you win (kill any unit of his, and he cannot win), suggest he builds a more well rounded list that's more fun.

-Matt

I guess that is indeed the answer to this list. Ironically, our 'Rock' is made out of T2 skinks...

There just isn't enough time to destroy the unit. Just don't get gatewayed off the table

The Hunted

 

[RipperDerek]

That's actually hillarious. Don't get hit by an irresistably-cast Dwellers, though...

The solution I've been working on involves three defensively-kitted cowboys holding up the demigryphs while you deal with the rest of his army.

 

[rantapanda]

-Matt

LMAO hilarious. but whats up with that fortress. Havent read the rules that thoroughly, can u take a building with ur list?!
and can u fit infite skinks and a slann in one ?
anyway lol.

 

[n810]

Yep the magic Ikea Tower is in the BRB list of magic items.

 

[Lizardmatt]

Wow, that's really not a fun list t go against.
If he's going with Scissors, take "The Rock."


Slaan, BSB, banner of discipline, wandering deliberations, reserve of energy, soul stone, harmonic, and the pyramid of itza (folding fortress).
9 Skink Priest, 1 with cloak of feathers, 1 with iron curse icon.

2x10 skinks cohorts
100 skink cohorts, poison attacks, full command, 10 kroxigor

2399 points deploys inside the bunker (slaan + 9 priests, + huge cohort).
100 points deploys outside.

In the magic phase, you've got 12 channel attempts.
You go for boost shems for the S6 hits, boosted spirit leech. Skinks throw dice at chain lightning and thunderbolt (more S6 hits).
Nothing in his army has a chance at taking a building, the knight get off their hoses and get pasted by the krox. The demigryph get of their mount and get pasted by the krox. Steam tanks can only fire the cannon in, and hit D6 models.


It will be a very short, boring game. After you win (kill any unit of his, and he cannot win), suggest he builds a more well rounded list that's more fun.

-Matt

I guess that is indeed the answer to this list. Ironically, our 'Rock' is made out of T2 skinks...

There just isn't enough time to destroy the unit. Just don't get gatewayed off the table

The Hunted

Gateway doesn't take out whole units any more. Dwellers is a problem, but you have a good shot at taking out his wizard with just a boosted firepower.

-Matt

 

[RipperDerek]

Also, he has to specifically have chosen a life wizard: not super likely, unless he's meta-gaming against this specific counter. All in all, I think it's a good answer to the puzzle, even if un-fun.

I guess some of the INT test spells killing all your krox could also be a problem, since the knights can beat the skinks in an assault. But as you said, you may also be able to kill his wizard, and it might blow itself up trying to IF those spells.

I think the cowboy solution will also work, but it's not as clean as the tower, as it is more subject to variance.

 

[Shadoer]

I ran the numbers, and unfortunately, I don't think it works.

- Rippers do lose against knights in first round of combat - 3.5 wounds to 4.5, they have a standard but you have a charge. In the second round of combat, two of your three rippers are dead, the remaining one isn't frenzied, and there are still 9 knights in the unit.

25 Spear saurus seem to do just fine against the knights, however. They knights will inflict a lot of wounds the turn they charge, but you'll be steadfast, and you'll win future rounds of combat against them (by 1 on the average) thanks to ranks.

I should have mentioned they need to hit the Knights on the Flanks or the Rear for this to work, which I think should be very possible. But I suppose so long as the Demigryphs stay on either flank will make it more difficult to hit it.

- Baby steg bowshots tend to hit on 5s, wound on 3s, do 2 wounds. That's an average of 0.44 wounds per turn per steg against the demigryphs.

To be fair so long as the steg doesn't move for a round, it is going to hit on 4s. I believe that bolt is also poisoned, so the odds do go up a bit, but you are right in the sense that it's won't

- Matching up the Saurus against demigryphs I don't think is a good plan. You can't guarantee Wyssan's on your Saurus every turn, and even with it you're losing 5-6 saurus a turn to the demigryphs while only doing 2 wounds back. They will mulch through the Saurus after a couple rounds of combat. You might be able to win a round of combat if you get off Wyssan's AND get in a flank charge with the baby steg, but S5 impact hits only do 2 wounds on average (doesn't even kill 1 gryph). Also...

- Steam tanks will probably kill the baby stegs, and then ram your units. Meanwhile, the knights (who killed the rippers earlier) will also ram anything that looks like it might hold.

Well I'd like to think I would get Wyssan off because I do have 3 wizards who can cast it. Also I'd like to think that my Slann has managed to do some damage with him magic and has either done some wounds to the Steam Tanks or picked off some Demigryphs. So long as I banged up the Steam Tank a bit or picked off a couple of Demigryphs, I'd like to think these battles would be a bit less one sided.

Although you are right, it would be very tough.

The good news is, the decked out temple guard unit would actually win against the demigryphs as-is if they only had more models. The higher initiative and armor piercing on the Demigryphs means you'll lose 12 of them before you get your second round of strikes in. However, if you do manage to get off any magical buff (regen, wyssan's, miasma, HOG, etc)., they will win that round of combat.

With a Slann and 2 other wizards, I should get one buff off. Granted it's not guaranteed and my Slann could explode and kill my temple guard, but other wise I'd like to think the could at least kill or break one demigryph unit and bang up the Steam Tank.

Your right, it's not as great a solution as I thought initally, but I don't think it's that bad of a solution.

 

[Scalenex]

Also, he has to specifically have chosen a life wizard: not super likely, unless he's meta-gaming against this specific counter. All in all, I think it's a good answer to the puzzle, even if un-fun.

I guess some of the INT test spells killing all your krox could also be a problem, since the knights can beat the skinks in an assault. But as you said, you may also be able to kill his wizard, and it might blow itself up trying to IF those spells.

If the Wizard is deployed with the Hurricanum he is required to take Heavens so Life, Shadow and Death are off the table.

 

[Dreyer]

Wow, that's really not a fun list t go against.
If he's going with Scissors, take "The Rock."


Slaan, BSB, banner of discipline, wandering deliberations, reserve of energy, soul stone, harmonic, and the pyramid of itza (folding fortress).
9 Skink Priest, 1 with cloak of feathers, 1 with iron curse icon.

2x10 skinks cohorts
100 skink cohorts, poison attacks, full command, 10 kroxigor

2399 points deploys inside the bunker (slaan + 9 priests, + huge cohort).
100 points deploys outside.

In the magic phase, you've got 12 channel attempts.
You go for boost shems for the S6 hits, boosted spirit leech. Skinks throw dice at chain lightning and thunderbolt (more S6 hits).
Nothing in his army has a chance at taking a building, the knight get off their hoses and get pasted by the krox. The demigryph get of their mount and get pasted by the krox. Steam tanks can only fire the cannon in, and hit D6 models.


It will be a very short, boring game. After you win (kill any unit of his, and he cannot win), suggest he builds a more well rounded list that's more fun.

-Matt

This.. so much this!

If your opponent cheeses up you do it right back.

 

[RipperDerek]

It's not as fancy as the tower solution, but this is the list I've finally settled on:

================
1x Slann Mage Priest (L)
1x Saurus Oldblood on Cold One (L)

1x Saurus Scar-Vet on Cold One (H)
1x Saurus Scar-Vet on Cold One (H)

30x Skink Cohort w/ 3x Kroxigor (C)
30x Skink Cohort w/ 3x Kroxigor (C)

10x Chameleon Skinks (S)
1x Stegadon w/Sharpened Horns (S)

1x Ancient Stegadon w/Sharpened Horns (R)
1x Ancient Stegadon w/Sharpened Horns (R)
================

The plan is:

1) Unkillable Oldblood slowly mulches one of the units of demigryphs. Geared out Scar-Vets delay the other two.
2) Slann goes on Steam Tank extermination duty w/Searing doom and similar spells. Might explode itself.
3) Skroxigors take on Knights. Prospects for a long-term fight look good.
4) Chamelon skinks go after the wizard.
5) Stegadons charge into ongoing combats in order to provide combat res, breaking the Empire units.

There are definitely a lot of ways for things to wrong. All the cowboys and the Slann have ward saves, but they could still get shot down by a Stank, for example. Or some lucky rolls by the Demigryphs could kill the Scar-Vets early.

 

[laribold]

Wouldn't an ethereal slann be a good option here?

He'll basically tar pit a steam tank forever (you could even give him the Relic sword for always wounding on 5s, just in case he sneaks a cheeky wound through the AS).
With a BSB upgrade can do the same to one of the Demigryph units

He's got no magic attacks (bar the wizard lord) and very little/nothing in the way of static combat res. Even if your Slann is stuck in combat, all you need is a couple of skink priests and you can still cast away at the rest of his army.

Even with his extra movement, you can simply create some no go areas for his Steam Tanks because of the risk of being charged by the Slann.

One final (suicide) option is to simply charge a priest or chief on foot in, cast Miasma and swap the Slann into the combat.