AoS Video - Saurus Warriors - Clubs or Spears?

[Caleb ex nihilo]

 

[Putzfrau]

Love these videos, but i'm never a huge fan of mathing out spears as just a pure doubling of the number of weapon attacks.

Due to the way 32mm honeycomb, you can fit some of a second rank into 1'' but you'll never fit any of a third rank into 2''. It's usually closer to something like ~60% more attacks, vs 100%.

I dont think it necessarily changes the "spears are better in bigger units" argument, but it does make the base numbers a little bit closer.

Granted, my dislike might stem from the fact that all 90 of my painted saurus warriors have clubs...

 

[Caleb ex nihilo]

Love these videos, but i'm never a huge fan of mathing out spears as just a pure doubling of the number of weapon attacks.

Due to the way 32mm honeycomb, you can fit some of a second rank into 1'' but you'll never fit any of a third rank into 2''. It's usually closer to something like ~60% more attacks, vs 100%.

I dont think it necessarily changes the "spears are better in bigger units" argument, but it does make the base numbers a little bit closer.

Granted, my dislike might stem from the fact that all 90 of my painted saurus warriors have clubs...

Agree. I didn't want to mathhammer a full 40 models... left it at 20 attacking... although that is still probably difficult in real life. The fewer models that are in combat, the closer the gap is between clubs and spears.

And yep.... i have 40 painted warriors with clubs...

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Agree. I didn't want to mathhammer a full 40 models... left it at 20 attacking... although that is still probably difficult in real life. The fewer models that are in combat, the closer the gap is between clubs and spears.

And yep.... i have 40 painted warriors with clubs...

the divide starts at 5 models 15 clubs to 20 spears is the same damage so if you get more then 5 adishanal guys into combat then spears are better

 

[Asamu]

Love these videos, but i'm never a huge fan of mathing out spears as just a pure doubling of the number of weapon attacks.

Due to the way 32mm honeycomb, you can fit some of a second rank into 1'' but you'll never fit any of a third rank into 2''. It's usually closer to something like ~60% more attacks, vs 100%.

I dont think it necessarily changes the "spears are better in bigger units" argument, but it does make the base numbers a little bit closer.

Granted, my dislike might stem from the fact that all 90 of my painted saurus warriors have clubs...

Actually, it's easier to fit the 3rd rank in than the 2nd with honeycombing, but it's still a 50-70% increase rather than double, and at 50%, clubs and spears are pretty much even.

The bottom line for clubs is way better. Spears can be really crippled by good saves, while clubs will still do alright, and as the unit size drops, the difference between the two shrinks, so there's an argument to go with clubs even when Spears get a more than 50% increase in attacking models. Also, Saurus have such high output that you shouldn't need the extra models in range with spears even in the situations where they are better.

For big units, I think it's really just a matter of preference, with a small edge for spears, while for small units, clubs are clearly better.

 

[ChapterAquila92]

I'm a bit of a latecomer to this thread, but here's the treatise I've come to with regards to whether spears or clubs are better, and a large part comes down to how weapon range is practically mitigated by the 32mm base size.

Taking honeycombing into consideration, the second rank of saurus typically starts between 23mm and 32mm from the combat front - short enough that said second rank can participate in attacks within 1" if properly positioned. However, a third rank would typically start between 52mm and 62mm in kind, meaning that you'd be really hard-pressed to get that third rank of saurus participating on any given combat front within 2" (granted, you'd also have to be a real stickler for measurement on this matter since the smaller measurement is barely more than 1/32" above 2").

By contrast, units on the smaller bases have little issue in piling in two ranks for 1" attacks with their second rank starting between 18mm and 25mm under the same principle, with 2" attacks further added by a third rank starting between 41mm and 48mm. You'd literally have to be actively sabotaging yourself in order to fail getting that kind of efficiency on a combat front.

This, by the way, is a big part of the reason why there's the perception that spears are better on larger units in general. It just simply does not translate well from 25mm bases to 32mm bases.

At least, not without bumping up the attack range to 3" like it is with the Vanari Auralan Wardens.

In essence, celestite spears under the current rule set will almost always be outshone by celestite clubs where a saurus unit engages another unit directly, no matter the unit size, and especially after factoring in the rending characteristic. Where spears really shine however is in the ability for the front rank to attack a separate unit behind the first rank or two of the opposing unit it's already engaged with, or to attack a unit from behind an intervening chaff unit of your own - two very situational circumstances that require set-up by either yourself or your opponent.

It's a bit of a damper having come to this conclusion, not least of all after labouring to get 90 saurus warriors built with spears recently, but I'm not about to replace them with clubs just because of a little postmortem math.

EDIT:
Another thing to consider is that the base size of the opposing unit will have an impact on your combat frontage. While 25mm bases offer an easier time getting that second rank in combat (though not by much - 1mm closer at most), 40mm bases present a bigger challenge than would be usual for saurus units to get even half of the second rank within 1". Once the opposing unit's base size reaches 50mm and larger, it actually becomes a near-impossibility for saurus and other 32mm-based models to get 1" attacks from the second rank. Obviously, spears would be more useful in this situation than clubs, thus the spear resumes being an anti-large weapon purely as a function of base size.