8th Ed. Unit strenght and minus discussion

[Puhnupetteri]

Hello there

As i have returned to lizardmen army from 4 year pause not playing at all. I have noticed many things have changed since i last played as there is now 8 edition rulebook and we use 7th edition armybooks. I was wondering i need some new point of view for few things

Wich is situations that have changed.. strenghts and cons of new units.

As example i have noticed people now seem to use Skinks with kroxigor (3 Kroxx 24 skink?)
The thing i was wondering is how well does these units handle in battles? I personally have always used only Saurus warriors as for Real Deal Close combat. In wich situations people make choise to take Skink /w kroxx over SW unit? They seem same price. Okey Skinks have higher initiate so they more likely hit first then enemy and after that finally Kroxx... as SW:s are solid strike as last againts almost anything but they have high armory and good hitting.. not like skinks

Skink seem to have poison only for their ranged attack's so i wonder why on earth anyone would use them as melee group?

*EDIT* Skink /w kroxx discussion thread i found http://lustria-online.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5912

So here is list that i made for me so i myself and other people reading this thread can learn something more about lizardmen's

Weak unused units that you see rarely in field of battle:
Cold ones. Cold ones are expensive and they lose all combats all they own because normally enemy gets stedfast and fear is nerfed.. and CO's are now only to use as WM hunters or flanking but they are too expensive for that too cause we have terradons.

Swarms Swarms get stomped, relatively expensive (45pts) and they can hold enemy max 1 turn so you give your opponent free points?

Razordons lose to sallys in shooting effiency. They hit less, dont cause panic (unless they kill 25%)

As i came back i have been pondering how should i choose between Stegadon choises

Maybe you guys could assist me with this. Wich would YOU select if you would have to select Ancient stegadon with Skink chief or Ancient stegadon with EOTG? Or just Ancient stegadon with no character or Babysteg?

And as kroxigor has changed too i have question about them.
Kroxigor's? As for kroxigor's they dont seem so good anymore as anyone can hit from 2.nd rank not only kroxigors.. or did i miss something? I assumed they cant hit from 3.rd row right?

Magic seems nerfed too. There seems to be no sense of having shaman (Skink Priest called nowadays) in you army if you have slann cause they dont accually add anything. Okey 1 more change to channel extra dice. But extra spells is something that i dont get. Its the only benefit for taking skink Priest with slann in your army. As it seems you roll magic with 2D6 + channels. Those seem just enough to make all spells with your Slann if you throw avarage amount. Where do you need extra spells???

As i writed this post i somewhere lost it what i had to say .. but as i writed this it seems worth posting still maybe to clarify things for me and another players like me out there

Cheers puhnupetteri

 

[rammramm]

Welcome back to the hobby.

There is a thread about the best stegadons in another thread and so you might want to check it out. It seems like most people find either the ancient or the baby-steg without characters better than those with characters. Most people also seem to favour the ancient but that is more of a close call.

The units you have mentioned to be sub-optimal are pretty acurate and most lists do not bring them unless they have a modell/fluff/painting-reason to do so. The CoC for example are the only cavalry we can use and so they are fun to play even if they are overpriced.

Skrox-units (skinks and kroxigors combined) are usefull as fast infantry, flankers and as a good choice vs heavy armoured troops like knights. The skinks mostly fill the roll of a delivery system and extra protection for the kroxigors. They are fast and they pack a punch. Its true that everyone can hit from the second row in this edition but you are focusing on the wrong rule. The important rule is the one allowing the units to mix at all since that is not allowed for most. Also the new rules has made the kroxigors impossible to hit in CC untill you kill of enough skinks.

The channel dice are not to be underrestimated, however most people would agree with you that you only need 1 strong caster or multiple weak ones. What a skink brings is more versatility in choosing what spell to cast and a safetynet for those time when you roll 12PD and then snakeeyes on your first castattempt with the Slann. Since he cant cast any more during the phase if he fails one cast you would then have lost 10PD (hate that becalming doesnt work on the first throw). With a skink you can pick those PD upp and throw 5 each on uranos thunderbolt/chained lightning/comet of casandora. It might be worth an extra 115 points for 3 lore of heavens spells.

I hope I have at least made a litle sence and that future readers dont feel like I given terrible advise and suggestions.

Good luck

 

[n810]

also don't forget that the Slann can still use his telekenesis throught the skinks,
basicly he is using the skink for line of sight and range for spells.

 

[Eladimir]

I agreed the priest is helpful for providing range, especially if you runnning the Slann without TG (he'll be sitting farther back).

For the stegadon from what I've heard EOTG isn't very good and going characterless is best. Otherwise the steg is too large of a point target. If you fighting Knights then the bolt thrower is fantastic, otherwise blowpipes seem to do the most damage. I tried both stegs and the babysteg I think is best. for the extra points all you get is +1 str and -1 attacks.

As for the Skink krox unit, the skinks although pretty useless in combat do have javelins so with 24 skinks the stand and shoot reaction can do some decent damage.

 

[HoverBoy]

also don't forget that the Slann can still use his telekenesis throught the skinks,
basicly he is using the skink for line of sight and range for spells.

Sadly it only works on magic missiles of which most lores only have one.

 

[vapor]

also don't forget that the Slann can still use his telekenesis throught the skinks,
basicly he is using the skink for line of sight and range for spells.

Sadly it only works on magic missiles of which most lores only have one.

Of our two best lores, Life has zero but Light has two magic missles. I keep a level one Skink Priest as a Cube of Darkness caddy, his other job is to not die (I would say back up caster, but Heavens is awful.).

 

[rammramm]

I can not understand why people are constantly complaining over heavens. It has good buffs and highstrength attacks. On top of that the damadge spells will ruin hydras/HPO if you get a hit with shems first. Its not the best lore in the book but I dont think it deserves the bad reputation that it has gotten since the release of the book.

 

[HoverBoy]

(I would say back up caster, but Heavens is awful.

Great masses of marauders (Blizzard -1 to hit and LD ) several cannons (Blizzard shut down on 4+ and comet) as well as some DE whitches (re-roll 6s = severe reduction on poison) will disagree with this statement. And that's just my expirience, still haven't had a chance to wind blast enemy units into cloging friendly charge lanes but the dice gods will let me do it eventually, it is however less straight up beat face lore and more of a utility one so best left to back up casters... oh wait, that's what i was doing when i got lucky

 

[vapor]

(I would say back up caster, but Heavens is awful.

Great masses of marauders (Blizzard -1 to hit and LD ) several cannons (Blizzard shut down on 4+ and comet) as well as some DE whitches (re-roll 6s = severe reduction on poison) will disagree with this statement. And that's just my expirience, still haven't had a chance to wind blast enemy units into cloging friendly charge lanes but the dice gods will let me do it eventually, it is however less straight up beat face lore and more of a utility one so best left to back up casters... oh wait, that's what i was doing when i got lucky

Yet the same dice you used on that could be much better spent by the Slann with a real lore.

 

[HoverBoy]

Sometimes a slaan just cant pull the whole magic phase on his back, that's the whole point of having backup.
Also when an opportunity arrives to get spells off that the enemy won't dispell, because hes scared of what will follow, i preffer to take it. In my 12 games that i've had both a slaan and a priest, the priest has had chances to do some pretty sneaky stuff, made even easier by all the bad rep Heavens gets so maybe i shouldn't stop you from spreading that...

 

[vapor]

I can not understand why people are constantly complaining over heavens. It has good buffs and highstrength attacks. On top of that the damadge spells will ruin hydras/HPO if you get a hit with shems first. Its not the best lore in the book but I dont think it deserves the bad reputation that it has gotten since the release of the book.

High cost to output ratio on a max level 2 (well, up to a ghetto lvl 3, but it's a poor option in 8th) caster-- when we have one of the best casters in the game than can make much better use of the power pool. Taken on it's own it's not truly a bad lore, but it pales by far in comparison to the others especially when you throw who is casting.

 

[HoverBoy]

Meh two lvl 1 skinks for cube and scroll work ok as backup.
Other than that stick to the slaan by all means, just don't automatically discount them as useless, some times the extra bit of utility is worth the extra power die or two. It's called opportunism.

 

[Puhnupetteri]

As i read Hoverboys post i agree that he has point. Skink priest is to be used backup caster if something goes wrong with slann, but this happens rarely, as with focus of blaablaa you get 1 extra dice for each roll. Or if you play by ETC rules u dont risk with rolling 1 dice

And priests can be used as carriers for dispell scroll and cube. yes

BUT still! Yesterday played againts dwarf's and noticed that whole game i throwed 2-6 PD on magic phase and managed to channel 0 extra PD i think shaman is waste of points.. atleast on Ancient stegadon.

What comes to stegadon from now on i will play them without any character. Yesterday playing againts dwarfs showed me how fragile stegadons are. 1 Cannon ball and boom 400 pts lost. Taking 2 baby stegadon or 1 Ancient and taking like Priest on foot or something entirely else is the way i go from now on

It is very true that Skrox team is maybe good as hammer team. Flanking enemy and hitting where it hurts most. As saurus W hold enemy in place you hit with multiple cheap skrox team on his rear and flank him

As what comes to Lore of Heaven. I noticed its a decent lore. Dropping 3-5 comets on beastmen horde seems to have effect. Ofc comet dosnt match Dwellers from below. And attribute from heaven is not so often handy not so many armys use flyers (HE eagles okey..)

 

[HoverBoy]

As i read Hoverboys post i agree that he has point. Skink priest is to be used backup caster if something goes wrong with slann, but this happens rarely, as with focus of blaablaa you get 1 extra dice for each roll. Or if you play by ETC rules u dont risk with rolling 1 dice

Actually rumination sucks unde ETC since you can only generate 2PD with it each phase.

And priests can be used as carriers for dispell scroll and cube. yes

BUT still! Yesterday played againts dwarf's and noticed that whole game i throwed 2-6 PD on magic phase and managed to channel 0 extra PD i think shaman is waste of points.. atleast on Ancient stegadon.

I never suggested a steg priest, heck that will fill up your hero allowance most of the time.
What i did suggest is two foot priests one with cube one with scroll, the other gear for them varies according to taste.
Altho i must point out that giving a dawnstone to a steg priest can be pretty hillarious if you're able to get him in combat with an enemy tarpit, it makes burning alignment uber effective