8th Ed. Troubling High Elves

[T`hinker`er]

Just coming off a really bad loss and feeling crappy today. I need my mojo back... I was playing a very tough scenario that favored the other guy (HE) and hurt me (had to go the length of the board diagonally to get to him, lots of difficult terrain in the way, ancient forests and mysterious terrain I didn't want to get into) and he had +1 to cast Lore of Death in this scenario (because of a certain terrain feature) and managed to channel at least one dice EVERY turn lucky git!).

I was using almost the same exact army I used last time, not that I wanted to, but I lack enough models at this point to switch things around much. Added to that, he had played practice games against my exact army with the help of a very experienced player. I've spent all my in-between games time sculpting and painting (and casting all those original hand sculpted resin skinks: http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/old-schooler-new-to-lizzies.5025/)

This was only my 2nd real game using 8th edition. My army was basically a skink priest, skink BSB, 2 SKrox (3 Krox, 24 Skinks), 1 unit of 18 saurus 6x3, 3 units of 10 skink skirmishers, 1 unit of 5 chameleons and my sallie. Same army I wiped the floor with him in our first game, and I've been playing warahamer since 1994, so I felt I could do o.k. with it even though I don't have the models yet to switch anything out. My fear was that he'd bring cavalry and eliminate all my supporting units, and sure enough I felt that his army was pretty much tooled up to give mine a pretty hard time...he had a unit of silver helm Cav and 2 eagles to attack my support units and keep me off balance, a solid core of 21 phoenix guard (7x3) and 24 Seaguard (8x3), along with a unit of 10 archers (that's a fair amount of shooting) plus 2 mages, a level 2 and level 1, each with an item that gave an extra spell (so he pretty much had the whole Death deck, including The Purple Sun, which he never got off, but I always needed to save dispell dice for).

I should also mention that in this scenario I was not able to deploy scouts (the scenario gets rolled just before the game, so I had no way to know this), so my Chameleons basically functioned as another unit of skirmishing skinks.

I still get it confused with 7th edition rules all the time (example - not throwing enough dice at my first spell - forgetting that if I fail to cast I am DONE with the magic phase). On top of that my dice were pitiful beyond belief through the whole game, culminating in my general/skink priest getting sucked into the void. I don't like to whine about dice luck, but really my dice were truly bad from turn 1 right on through turn 6.

After my priest was sucked away he picked off my BSB with magic and when my only unit that managed to get into combat, a SKrox unit, lost combat by 1 against the Pheonix guard, they failed their LD test (rolled an 11 with cold blood!) and had no reroll, and then rolled "snake eyes" as their flee distance.

So having lost my general, BSB, one 300+/- point unit and half of another Skrox unit (again, to some bad dice), and note, we give half VP when unit is at half strength, it was a massacre. All I did against him was kill the eagles, I think...plus a few handfuls of elves but not enough to claim any VP.

I should finally note that in the campaign we are playing in, I cannot take a Slann (until I get a Lvl 2 Priest up to "Lord" level, which basically means he's have to be victorious in 4 battles). That's a big problem I am finding.

I have models to field 2 big units of Saurus and a box of CoC, and have another Sallie in a blister that I haven't assembled yet...a lot of work to do to get these ready for the table top as I take my time with models, as I think you can hopefully tell from the photos I've posted here...

So what are people doing against these highly mobile, magically tooled up, pretty nigh unbeatable in melee High Elf lists when you have no access to a Slann?? Our games are at about 1300 points at this early stage of the campaign. The future of the campaign is looking bad now for the lizards, as this army was the only thing standing between me and the HE rolling into my territories and taking away loads of my resources before I can get some banners up to stop his advance...

 

[Arli]

I do not know if you can use it (due to restrictions on your campaign), but a skink chief on an ancient stegadon with a warspear will destroy HE units. Impact hits (2d6+1) go before ASF and count toward CR. It would not have helped in crossing the board long ways (in your scenario), but it would help in a game where you could get it into combat quickly.

 

[T`hinker`er]

Yeah, that's a great idea, thanks Unfortunately I need to build a campaign improvement or two before Stegs become available to me, but I do have the old metal one and really want to see it on the table top before this campaign is over (and get the plastic one too, to be my "ancient")

It's a lot of points, and may be a bit risky against bolt throwers, but one has to try new things, right?

 

[mixer86]

Well it sounds to me like the other guy basically tailored his list to beat you. Not really in the spirit of the game and something that REALLY annoys me. Whats the point of playing the game that way? Oh well.

I think you should dropp some skink skirmisher in favour of more chamos. that way you will either be shooting him turn 1, if you get the first turn, or forcing the enemy to deal with the threat instead of moving into position to prepare for your saurus.

On a side note i didn't realise a skink could be a BSB, is that in the book or a campaign rule?

Yours Aye

Mixer

 

[Arli]

The skink chief comes with the BSB option. As does the scar-vet. Giving the skink chief the BSB, you almost must take the crown of command and no banner (unless you put him in a horde). You should also protect him by taking full command and another skink chief (that way, he does not get challenged to death).

 

[mixer86]

Oh ok, never read that, i guess i'm just used to taking a slaan as BSB, every now and again a scar vet.


Yours Aye

Mixer

 

[T`hinker`er]

I actually had the Skink BSB in a unit of 10 skirmishers, with the Priest, mostly hiding behind the 2 Skrox units. I had Chameleons, but the meeting engagement scenario we fought had the two armies stumbling into each other so scouts were not allowed to use their special deployment rules. Frankly I had a lot of stuff go against me, but the more I think about it the more I am constrained to conclude that I took some unnecessary risks with my characters (re-rolling a miscast and getting the "3" result instead, because I was trying to preserve power dice for the Blood Statuette), coupled with being overly cautious when I should have been more aggressive (not marching Saurus through difficult terrain or Skrox through a forest, when I really needed them to get up into the fight quicker).

I am determined to go back to the drawing board and fix those mistakes...and maybe take that Steg with the War spear too

 

[JohnMavrick]

Just coming off a really bad loss and feeling crappy today. I need my mojo back... I was playing a very tough scenario that favored the other guy (HE) and hurt me (had to go the length of the board diagonally to get to him, lots of difficult terrain in the way, ancient forests and mysterious terrain I didn't want to get into) and he had +1 to cast Lore of Death in this scenario (because of a certain terrain feature) and managed to channel at least one dice EVERY turn lucky git!).

This scenario is particularly difficult for us. The only way to combat it is with fast units such as CoC, Terradons (more usefull than you think) and skink units (which you had a good number of though for this point level perhaps too many).

I was using almost the same exact army I used last time, not that I wanted to, but I lack enough models at this point to switch things around much. Added to that, he had played practice games against my exact army with the help of a very experienced player. I've spent all my in-between games time sculpting and painting (and casting all those original hand sculpted resin skinks: http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/old-schooler-new-to-lizzies.5025/)

Nice Models! However this predicament is something I've seen a lot of in my group with a couple of individuals (their problem is not in building/sculpting models but a lack of funds). This does lead people to lean more towards building forces specifically to defeat people like my friends and you. If you know what your going to take I'm much more likely to take units which will give me a better edge in defeating you.

Playing in campaigns your in a competative situation more so than in tournaments. In campaigns, unless specifically designed to make players build all-comers lists, you often run into people who build towards defeating specific armies since you know what your fellow campaigners prefer to play and can further taylor a list to defeat specific armies. Being the 'Warlord' of our campaign group and designing and playing in campaigns for the last ten years I can attest to this very point.

This was only my 2nd real game using 8th edition. My army was basically a skink priest, skink BSB, 2 SKrox (3 Krox, 24 Skinks), 1 unit of 18 saurus 6x3, 3 units of 10 skink skirmishers, 1 unit of 5 chameleons and my sallie. Same army I wiped the floor with him in our first game, and I've been playing warahamer since 1994, so I felt I could do o.k. with it even though I don't have the models yet to switch anything out. My fear was that he'd bring cavalry and eliminate all my supporting units, and sure enough I felt that his army was pretty much tooled up to give mine a pretty hard time...he had a unit of silver helm Cav and 2 eagles to attack my support units and keep me off balance, a solid core of 21 phoenix guard (7x3) and 24 Seaguard (8x3), along with a unit of 10 archers (that's a fair amount of shooting) plus 2 mages, a level 2 and level 1, each with an item that gave an extra spell (so he pretty much had the whole Death deck, including The Purple Sun, which he never got off, but I always needed to save dispell dice for).

Well I first point of contention is that you have too many 'weak' units. You have only a single unit which has any staying power in your force (Saurus Warriors). True Skrox move fast and make excellent flankers you've built them to be frontal forces (I'm willing to bet you play them as a front line unit as well). Skinks DO NOT survive in frontal hand to hand combat. Bust these units into smaller, more managable sizes of 10/1 ratio and use them as flankers.

Also, build up your saurus warriors as these are a mainstay in the lizardmen army unless you play a southlands theme. In 2000+ point games I rarely leave with no less than a 24 saurus and 2 x 18 sarus at the minimum.

Despite the fact that he did play your exact army with another opponent his list is actually fairly typical for High Elf armies of your point size. High Elves are all about shooting, magic and Phoenix Guard. The Silver Helms aren't Dragon Princes but in a 1300 point game they are better than no cavalry.

I should also mention that in this scenario I was not able to deploy scouts (the scenario gets rolled just before the game, so I had no way to know this), so my Chameleons basically functioned as another unit of skirmishing skinks.

Such is the way the dice roll. Mr. Murphy often rears his ugly head.

I still get it confused with 7th edition rules all the time (example - not throwing enough dice at my first spell - forgetting that if I fail to cast I am DONE with the magic phase). On top of that my dice were pitiful beyond belief through the whole game, culminating in my general/skink priest getting sucked into the void. I don't like to whine about dice luck, but really my dice were truly bad from turn 1 right on through turn 6.

Such is the way the dice roll. Mr. Murphy often rears his ugly head.

After my priest was sucked away he picked off my BSB with magic and when my only unit that managed to get into combat, a SKrox unit, lost combat by 1 against the Pheonix guard, they failed their LD test (rolled an 11 with cold blood!) and had no reroll, and then rolled "snake eyes" as their flee distance.

Can you blame him for BSB assassinating? Cold blooded leadership 7 with BSB is daunting.

I should finally note that in the campaign we are playing in, I cannot take a Slann (until I get a Lvl 2 Priest up to "Lord" level, which basically means he's have to be victorious in 4 battles). That's a big problem I am finding.

Hmm...I see the fluff reason behind this, letting your mage build up to lord level. However does your Skink Priest explode into a blob of a fatty toad? LoL! I guess all of a sudden a Slann comes across and eats your Priest? LoL!

I have models to field 2 big units of Saurus and a box of CoC, and have another Sallie in a blister that I haven't assembled yet...a lot of work to do to get these ready for the table top as I take my time with models, as I think you can hopefully tell from the photos I've posted here...

It's a lot of work (your models are nice) but you really do need to get those Saurus Warriors on the field. And you have CoC without fielding them!!! ::mimics having a heart attack and brain seizure:: Buddy you've got to field those guys! Heavy Cavalry is no slouch in 8th Ed. Especially against Elves with their Str 3 Tough 3 virtually no armour save!

 

[liath]

I fight elves quite a lot and feel your pain, the fact you can't take a slann is particularly cruel.

What I would suggest is that elves are good fighters, however they can't take the hits. What you need to do is stay alive long enough to crush him with your warriors (I've seen saurus take out even phoenix guard on equal numbers!)

You can't use law of life (as you've got no slann) but look at other ways to protect your saurus units until they make it into combat (it sounds like skink distractions would be an idea).

Skinks are great at taking out the rarer/powerful high elfs (dragons, bolt throwers and wizards).

My latest (unperfected) tactic is to take terradons supporting my saurus block, the turn before the charge fly over the target unit and drop rocks, free reform to face the unit when they land. Next turn charge saurus/terradons into the unit. They've taken D3 S3 hits per terradon and you're 3 CR points up before you even start fighting!

If they run they take dangerous terrain tests to move through your troops, by our interpretation of the rules both of units can pursue too!

You can also come up with a very cheap and good scar vet with the poison frog item.

 

[T`hinker`er]

Thanks guys, sorry it's taken me so long to respond but work has been brutal this week, and I was away over the weekend celebrating my birthday

I have to say, the Skrox, with their steadfast ability, seemed a better choice than the Saurus. Saurus don't seem able to stand up to Elves in combat without a crown of command or something like that - they are awfully expensive to make steadfast, no?

By contrast, the 9 attacks from the steadfast Krox really do whittle the elves down pretty fast. But a second flanking attack of some kind is necessary to push things over and break the HE. Not sure where that will come from unless I can fit some CoC into the points available. As it happened, I was unlucky that he made 7 of his Pheonix Guard ward saves in the first round of combat when my Krox caused 9 wounds (with the benefit of an Augment on me and a Hex on him). I'm telling you, the dice were simply unreal in this game. I'm still having nightmares from it

I do have my work cut out for me getting my other unit of Saurus assembled and painted...I have 24 with spears slowly coming together (everything in my army is a conversion based on 5th edition figures).

The CoC seem expensive for what they do, but I will give them a try soon. And a Steggie seems like a good choice against the elves as well.

Not too sure I want to decrease the number of skinks until I can take terradons (I need a "flyer" upgrade first), as the skinks do tend to work pretty well with the poison and I have to hide my Priest and BSB somewhere (no, I don't blame him for killing off the BSB, I would have done this too...my error was in not having a backup Priest, I think...)

I'm going to have to go back to the drawing board. I'll post here before my next battle to give you an idea of the points and restrictions and my plan...

 

[JohnMavrick]

It is the most frustrating thing when the dice are against you. It's nearly the only thing that can make me want to stop playing. If I'm losing to a superior opponent I can roll with the punches and keep on playing even when it seems hopeless. But when dice run against you and for your opponent the first five turns and there is no light I'm sorely tempting to toss the towel.

((Coincidently the only other thing that makes me pissed off and wanna stop playing it a cheater))

 

[T`hinker`er]

Those are the moments that really test your sportsmanship. It's easy to be a nice guy and be generous when you have the game well in hand...

 

[T`hinker`er]

O.k., so assume you have 1400 points against which to fight these HE armies...what do you take to counter?

Elven Army #1

2 Mages (level 2 general, plus level 1); 21 Phoenix Guard; 25 Lothern Sea Guard; 18 Archers; 5 Dragon Princes; 2 Great Eagles


Elven Army #2

1 Elven Noble general (tooled up for combat); 1 lvl 2 Mage; 21 Phoenix Guard; 25 Spearmen; 18 Archers; 5 Dragon Princes; Chariot; Bolt thrower

 

[theo11093]

Use sauruses Use sauruses Use sauruses Use sauruses Use sauruses Use sauruses Use sauruses Use sauruses Use sauruses Use sauruses Use sauruses Use sauruses.
They are what make lizardmen amazing (apart from slann mage priests)
for the phoenix guard use temple guard 12 phoenix guard against 10 temple guard temple guard win every time 2+ to wound and 4+ to hit they get destroyed. Also the scenario i guess was proably built by him. Its really unfair scenario and next one give him a taste of his own medecine and make one in the jungle where you ambush him.

 

[T`hinker`er]

So you're saying you like Saurus then?

I'm finding that they die almost as fast as the skinks against HE, and I'm doubtful about keeping them steadfast with all those casualties. I am thinking about a list with 2 decently sized saurus blocks and a stegadon, but not sure how I am going to make this all fit in 1400 points and still have decent supporting units. Crown of Command might be necessary here... I do get the sense that if I can get to him fast enough and hang in there for a few turns I can wear him down. We shall see. Any other help is much appreciated

 

[ThakCo]

I have found that the High Elves have troubles against skinks. All their units will be striking first and re-rolling misses. This means small units will have issues as they lose attacks too fast. So the more ranks the better. Also, their sword masters and white lions are great at taking down monsters, however against things like weedy little skinks the extra strength doesn't matter. Just remember, not matter how scary they are or how many special rules they have they are still wimpy elves. They all have toughness 3, so the strength of skinks is sufficient to wound. Even the high elve heros and lords are fairly easy to kill. Just remember that you might want a krox (or more) in units of skink cohorts to give them leadership and have a little more damage output. The result is the high elves will destroy massive numbers of skinks, but each turn you should be able to kill about a third to half the number of elves as you have lost in skinks. This works out just fine for lizardmen as elves are expensive and skinks are meant to die. That being said, make sure any skink units attack the high elf elites; spearmen will destroy skink units. Also, skrox units do well against dragons (as long as you are actually facing the dragon). Against high elves kill the rider first, he is the easier target.

Of course salamanders do well against soft squishy tasty elves.

 

[Viarca]

Against the lists you might be facing at 1400 points, I'd try somethng like this:

Slann- Focus (Light), Rumination, BSB

35x Saurus (6 wide)- Mus, Std

25x Temple Guard (6 wide)- Mus Std

6x Chameleons

6x Chameleons

Salamander (extra Skink)

Your Slann and his extra dice should give you a big advantage over a lv2 HE Mage. Try and keep the Speed of Light and Pha's Protection bubbles on your two blocks at all times (his LSG would need non-rerollable 6's to hit with both buffs on and the DP and PG ould need non-rerollable 5's... and the I10 from Speed will make worries about initiative tests go away). The Net spell would be well used against the DPs if you can fit it in your first couple magic phases to slow them down and/or thin their numbers a bit (he'll still have a 3+ armor save, but make him take D6 S4 wounds a couple times and they are likely to shrink and have to take a panic test before they get to you). I'd usually recommend a second Salamander at this point level, but since you know you'll be seeing DPs that have a 2+ ward against their template (and would be the best target for them), I would just go with the 1 to serve as a distraction and try to sneak it up to use its template on the PG/LSG/Archers. With such a low point game, and wth your opponents limited deployment, getting two groups of Skinks in his deployment zone should be easy, and from there, they will be able to really mess with his gameplan. If you face the RBT list, that should be your first target, followed by the archers to try and cause some panic tests (obviously, in the unlikely event there's a lone mage, he should take priority over everything).

 

[T`hinker`er]

Ah Viarca, I can't take a Slann any more than he can take a lord. In this campaign we are limited to Heros for the first year. Do you see that Saurus army actually working with a Lvl 2 Skink using Lore of Heavens?

Thakco, your recommendations basically match what I was doing, but with the scenario and dice I had in my last game I got creamed.

 

[Viarca]

Ah Viarca, I can't take a Slann any more than he can take a lord. In this campaign we are limited to Heros for the first year. Do you see that Saurus army actually working with a Lvl 2 Skink using Lore of Heavens?

Sorry, I missed that part. It definitely makes things a lot harder without the Slann. What lores are the HE Mages running? Does your opponent play aggressively (moving the DP and Chariot/Eagles up early to go after support units, or stay back and shoot waiting for you to come to him?

Maybe try a list with a big unit of Saurus and a Skrox bus running up as quickly as you safely can. The Chameleons would remain essential to try and distract for a couple turns, hopefully taking out his rares (if you get first turn anyway for the Eagles and doing some damage to another target... probably Archers since it's the smallest and most fragile of the units... maybe the Tiranoc Chariot if it's hanging back). Stick a couple Salamanders with extra handlers (or maybe one unit and a unit of Terradons) in there to maybe make it up and be useful, or at worst serves as another distraction to mess with his deployment and movement.

For characters, maybe try the Scar Vet with the Crown of Command and the Enchanted Shield for a 2+AS. Even with Cold Blooded, a BSB is just too good to leave out, but if you are going to have any sort of magic/magic defense, then that will mean taking a Skink Chief (throw a Charmed Shield on him for a little bit of protection). For the Skink Priest, because of point considerations, run a level 1 (thankfully Heavens has a good signature spell... if the DP look like they wll get the charge on you, do everything you can to have this on them to limit their damage first round, because after that, they're just S3, and likewise if you charge the LSG, make sure to get it on them that turn to cut down on how many of his attacks hit... the only thing I'd even consider taking instead would be Comet) and take a Diadem of Power to hopefully shut down his magic phase or make him throw lots of dice on his few spells. Depending on how you feel about it, the Blood Statuette of Spite might be useful. Elf T3 can mean you may be able to assassinate his General or a mage, but it also might mean you wasted 25 points.

Anyway, without the Slann, this is what I would try for my first attempt at those lists:

Scar Vet- Enchanted Shield, Crown of Command

Skink Chief- BSB, Charmed Shield

Skink Priest- Diadem of Power, Blood Statuette of Spite

40x Saurus- FC

32x Skinks + 2 Kroxigor- Musician, Standard

6x Chameleons

6x Chameleons

1x Salamender- extra Handler

1x Salamander- extra Handler

*If the Terradons work for you (and they very well might excel in this situation), drop 1 Salamander unit and 2 Skinks from the Skrox and try a unit of 3.

Not sure if that would work for you, it's just what I would try for starters. Good luck!

 

[T`hinker`er]

Thanks. I don't have 40 Saurus all painted the same way...that's a pretty massive unit. I would imagine it would work well as an anvil with the crown of command...but oh so many eggs on one dwellers prone basket!

Do you really think a lvl 1 with the Daidem of power can get the job done, playing total defense on magic? For 10 more points I can be at level 2. Been thinking about having a second priest just to double my chances of channeling and carry a dispel scroll.

The Skrox unit seems to have a decent enough chance at steadfast, but compared to my usual 24 skinks + 3 Krox, not a lot of punching power. Might be worth a try just to give the big Saurus block a try.

I can't take terradon's yet in the campaign. I only have one salamander painted up and I was thinking a Steg would be my next big model project, since the impact hits come before the HE's ASF... It's a lot of points, but against a HE bolt thrower (as opposed to cannon using enemies) I think the Steg would have a chance. Doubt I can afford to make it an ancient or put a war spear on it at this point value, but that could come later. Thoughts?