8th Ed. Troglodons

[SilverFaith]

I have decided to purchase one of these from the online store. I usually prefer to get them from a physical store, but this model just looks absoluutely fantastic from what I've seen.

What I HAVEN'T seen, is anyone actually using them. And I am not sure why.

These guys look pretty strong on paper. 18" quick to fire S5 with d3 wounds seem pretty good. BS3 means it only hits on 4s at best, or most likely 5s because of long range, but S5 makes it quite likely to wound, -2 AS is pretty decent, and the attack is basically free.

You can get an additional channel, you have a large creature with aquatic, which means it can run around in water with -1 to hit it, and charge/march through rivers without any issues. Terror works wonders against some units, and Arcane Vassal makes it potential range-extender. I can imagine getting off a nasty direct damage spell AND the venom spit would hurt pretty much anything you start targetting.

What is the problem with these things? too expensive for what they bring? 200 points seem fair, especially in the rare choices, considering how people love their Carnosaurs. Is it because people just prefer the ancients, or what is it that makes this guy so underplayed? I feel like I am missing something really obvious, but I just don't see the problem with this guy.

 

[pgarfunkle]

I have also jut bought one of these because as you say it's a gorgeous model I'm going to play a few games with it but I think that it's too expensive for what it can do. The shooting attack is too unreliable and it's boost to PF isn't enough. It also competes with Ancient Stegs and Sallies for those rare points.

I think that it needs one of 3 adjustments to appear more regularly

A) Predatory fighter FAQ'd to include supporting attacks (I feel this should be done anyway but that's another thread which has already been done to death elsewhere)

B) The roar needs to be an always on effect like the Bastiladon's initiative boost or the Ancient's Ward save

C) A points reduction

I think ideally if the first 2 points were done the Trog would see a lot more use.

 

[Lazyb8s]

I'm getting one too ASAP. I love the looks of the model and the fluff looks like fun in the games. My skinks need all the help they can get.

 

[VampTeddy]

It only has 3 posionous close combat attacks and doesn't have any other close combat extras.

It can't fight anything but infantry where it gets a stomp.

It's shooting attack only hits 1/3 of the time, and if it marched, it can't fire.

It's boost will give you a marginal increase in attacks, basically 2 extra attacks for the usual front width of saurus or templeguard, and 1 per 2 krox in a front rank - then they need to wound as well after that, in the end we're looking at 1-2 CR in our favor, for one combat in the game unless you can do an overrun.

IF you buy the channeling power, instead you can get a young stegadon, with 1 more toughness, crew that shoots, a giant bow that hits equally bad but isn't quick to fire but has longer range, d6 +1 impact hits for CC, and 1 more attack because ofcourse it would.

The only + on the trog's side is it's ability to fire MM and DD from the slann, but a skink priest for 95 pts with a cloak can do that too, and better regarding speed and trolliness. If you pack a priest in a cohort you suddenly get more wounds as well, for 95 slaves your looking at 19 skinks FC and a skink priest.

It can't handle anything on it's own, and spending 215 pts on a spit that hits 1/3rd of the time and the ability to generate maybe 4-5 extra attacks in an optimal situation isn't impressive to me.

 

[GCPD]

Its a monster that can't fight, a buff wagon that doesn't buff, with a shooting attack that can't hit, a stack of irrelevant special rules that don't contribute to any of the three major issues with it or justify the points tag. Compound this with the typical Lizardman deficiencies of low Weapon Skill (is hit easily and can't hit back), low initiative (gets hit before attacking), and pitiful defence (T5 4+). Oh, and its crewed by a regular Skink.

Any potential role it might have is surpassed something else. A Skink Priest and a Bastiladon Solar Engine will do much better than a Troglodon. Casting, channeling, a permanent and meaningful buff, S10 attack, etc.

 

[Ondjage]

Still, it is our BEEFIEST ARCANE VASSAL

 

[GCPD]

Well, I guess...

But 3 skink priests would be more efficient.

 

[SilverFaith]

That's a real shame. I was hoping it would be worth actually bringing...

Well, I probably will anyway. I sometimes run skink-less armies (aside from priests), so I'm not really making competetive armies, anyway. I'll have to keep its weaknesses in mind though, so thanks for pointing those out.

Well, I guess...

But 3 skink priests would be more efficient.

That's pretty incomparable though. I would never buy 3 skink priests, because it would limit my amount of Scar Veterans. Trogs take up rare, a slot which I never come even close to filling up. I have a few salamanders, but they often only take up about 10 % of my list, with nothing else really spending those points. And I always cap out lords and heroes.

 

[Lazyb8s]

That's a real shame. I was hoping it would be worth actually bringing...

Well, I probably will anyway. I sometimes run skink-less armies (aside from priests), so I'm not really making competetive armies, anyway. I'll have to keep its weaknesses in mind though, so thanks for pointing those out.

Well, I guess...

But 3 skink priests would be more efficient.

That's pretty incomparable though. I would never buy 3 skink priests, because it would limit my amount of Scar Veterans. Trogs take up rare, a slot which I never come even close to filling up. I have a few salamanders, but they often only take up about 10 % of my list, with nothing else really spending those points. And I always cap out lords and heroes.

Interesting thought...

 

[Scalenex]

I think a Troglodon is worth including. It's not a must include and never will be, but I don't think it's dead weight.

I included a Troglodon.

Our ref ruled that PF did apply to supporting attacks, but that doesn't make a huge deal.

My Troglodon did okay, not great but okay. I played with a WD Slann and probably about a half of the total spells were cast through the Troglodon (and nearly every magic missile).

Compared to three Skink Priests, a Troglodon is a better channel.

Here is why:

-Whether you use the Skink's spells or not, you pay for them. If you have zero intention of casting spells FROM your Skink priest, you should probably not take them. At least don't take more than one. I'd rather pay for marginal abilities that will have a small effect rather than spells I will never use.

-Most Skink Priests bunker in Skink Skirmishers or Cohort. A Skink chaff unit is normally running interference so your vassal is likely to be out of position (or fleeing) a lot. A Troglodon doesn't have that problem. He is tall enough to have good LOS on great swaths of the board and the spit attack isn't too bad if it's following up a magic missile. Also a Troglodon is not the best fighter but they handle something that has been thinned out with magic.

-Your Troglodon will either be pointing at chaff units to blast, or he will be sticking close by PF units. In the first case the enemies are weak enough that the Troglodon's mediocre statline is sufficient. In the second case there is enough bodies to keep the Troglodon from breaking and the PF units benefit from a nice thunderstomp and Terror test on their side.

-Finally, the reputation of Troglodon's is so bad, people ignored it and in one case I was able to stomp all over my opponents gunline. I still lost (WEs are hard to beat), but the Troglodon was my MVP of that match.

-The Troglodon can't take on nasty things but it can withstand a lot of BS based shooting and magic missiles. My Skink Priest bunkers tend to be devastated by these attacks.

-The Troglodon has so many special abilities, at least one of the obscure abilities is likely to come into play once per game. Sometimes there is a nice convenient swamp to run through, sometimes you score lots of sixes when fighting (remember you are poisonous and have PF so 6s really rock) sometimes Scaly Skin really comes through and the WEs are sending a hundred arrows at him for minimal damage.

I wouldn't take a Troglodon without all of the following.

-Lots of magic missiles: Wandering Deliberations or Lore Master of High Magic. MAYBE Light or Fire
-A TG bunkered Slann
-A minimum of three large PF counting the TG.
-A maximum of one Skink Priest or two in a grand army.

Fortunately my lists look a lot like that anyway. I even debating taking TWO Troglodons just for fun. I need to practice maneuvering Kroxigor better before I go that far.

I also think Troglodons will be more valuable in a grand army. My one experiment with this, the Troglodon never got to test this because of a Slann being sucked into a Vortex.

I think the keye is to treat a Troglodon like a vassal first and everything else second.

The shooting attack sucks!

Well so do the Steggy howdah weapons but we still take those. If the acid spit works, great, if not no biggie. It's also quick to fire which is a good for an Arcane Vassal since you have one more disincentive to being charged.

Only three attacks

Three poisonous PF attacks. That's plenty for dealing with chaff or supporting a Saurus block. If you want a monster that can fight by itself and win, take a Carnosaur. I think it's judged unfairly because people expect it to be more like a Carnosaur.

PF boost only works once

I'd like more boosts too but most games tend to have one critical round with lots of combats. As long as they are reasonably close together one is adequate.

The special abilities are too weak

Yes, but you get lots of them. Just by dumb luck one of them will matter each game statistically speaking. Maybe there is a convenient swamp to run through. Someone might fail a Fear or Terror Test, you might get multiple sixes in one attack roll (poison and PF) or you managed to kill an eagle with one wad of spit.

 

[GCPD]

My point was that if you want something purely to channel and provide Arcane Vessel, a Skink Priest will always be superior. You can get three for one Trog if you want - but what you should take note is that you can get one Priest for a third of the cost of a Trog. Is the additional 2/3rds cost worth all the other rules it has (Aquatic, a rubbish shooting attack, naff stats, a one time buff that falls somewhere between medicore and irrelevant?). I'm not convinced, and I'd rather take a Priest and spend the remaining points elsewhere.

In reference to maxing out slots, I find that I regularly run Lizardmen lists without any Rares at all. Once you've got your Core, Heroes and Lords, I find most of the good toys are in Special (which is impossible to max out if you've filled up Core, Heroes and Lords). I certainly wouldn't want to spend 200 points just to have something in Rare if I can spend those points better elsewhere which, which the Trog, you almost certainly can.

 

[SilverFaith]

My point was that if you want something purely to channel and provide Arcane Vessel, a Skink Priest will always be superior. You can get three for one Trog if you want - but what you should take note is that you can get one Priest for a third of the cost of a Trog. Is the additional 2/3rds cost worth all the other rules it has (Aquatic, a rubbish shooting attack, naff stats, a one time buff that falls somewhere between medicore and irrelevant?). I'm not convinced, and I'd rather take a Priest and spend the remaining points elsewhere.

In reference to maxing out slots, I find that I regularly run Lizardmen lists without any Rares at all. Once you've got your Core, Heroes and Lords, I find most of the good toys are in Special (which is impossible to max out if you've filled up Core, Heroes and Lords). I certainly wouldn't want to spend 200 points just to have something in Rare if I can spend those points better elsewhere which, which the Trog, you almost certainly can.

But from your logic, by the time you get to considering the Trog, you have already filled up the Heroes slot, and thus can't fill in more Priests.

And really, priests die too easily for my taste, and very often become sitting ducks that doesn't actually accoplish anything, aside from the odd channel die/range extender.

Which the trog does better.

I managed to borrow one for a game, since GW is being VERY LATE with their delivery. It was... interesting, to say the least.

My VC enemy got himself a nasty surprise on multiple occasions. The roar earned me a total of 5 additional attacks from rank and file saurus. From my Vets and oldbloods, things went even better, and I rolled a total of 4 5s, which made the roar EXTREMELY worth it, as it helped kill his blender.

The thing that sold it, however, was the spit. I made a shot at a Vargulf. Having become jaded from reading so much bad about the shooting attack. I had a small skirmisher unit pepper it with shots, only taking out 1 wound, when the trog came around. I shot, rolled a 6. Yay, poison. He rolled his regen save, and failed. I rolled for wounds, and rolled 3. The VC player looked a bit at his Varghulf, then at the Troglodon, then back at his Varg... before cursing a bit and removing his model. He had not expected to lose a fairly expensive model to something that silly.

I also managed to snipe his master necromancer with the Death signiture because of this guy. Troglodons are more more mobile, and... to be honest, even if the enemy had shot it to death on turn 1, that is a full turn of shooting that isn't hitting my expensive temple guard+slann bunker.

So... a distraction carnifex?

 

[JWK47]

I for one welcome out Troglodon overlords...

 

[GCPD]

But from your logic, by the time you get to considering the Trog, you have already filled up the Heroes slot, and thus can't fill in more Priests.

Eh? No. I'm saying that you are better off getting a Skink Priest + something else than a Trog, as the Skink Priest can channel like the Trog but cast as well, and carry a Dispel Scroll for you, and the something else will probably perform better. Take the Priest to cap out your Heores if you wish, then spend the rest of the points you'd use on a Trog elsewhere.

And really, priests die too easily for my taste, and very often become sitting ducks that doesn't actually accoplish anything, aside from the odd channel die/range extender.

Err, don't take this the wrong way, but surely you can see the irony here? You are saying a Skink Priest, who can hide in a unit of Skinks, is more vulnerable than a notoriously cannon-attracting Monster in 8th edition? You're criticizing Priests for only channeling the odd die and extending spell ranges, and then defending the Trog on both those grounds?

There will of course be games where the Trog does well. Repeat something often enough and you'll see a wide range of results. But will it do well reliably and consistently? Only time will tell, I guess.

 

[NexS1]

re priests dying too quickly, this is my take.
I take priests to carry scroll and cube. once these items have been used, I 6-dice the spells i want, not caring about his survivability. Irrisistable Chain Lightning has done wonders for me. I'd consider the same in beasts - transformation.

Really, everything else is a bonus
This is why i take prists over trogs

 

[SilverFaith]

re priests dying too quickly, this is my take.
I take priests to carry scroll and cube. once these items have been used, I 6-dice the spells i want, not caring about his survivability. Irrisistable Chain Lightning has done wonders for me. I'd consider the same in beasts - transformation.

Really, everything else is a bonus
This is why i take prists over trogs

This assumes you roll the spells. And this might just be me, but I very rarely get the spells I actually want on the priests.

Priests, however, in terms of survivability, are harmed in an entirely different way when placed in a unit. You might claim "It is just skinks!", but if you hit the large template and wipe out the unit,you still lost potentially 195 poins if you gave it a dispel scroll, and still haven't used it.

I don't really think you can compare them though, priests and trogs. Priests can be rendered completely useless by poor winds of magic, especially when you also have a slann, while a Troglodon will always have its use.

A troglodon is basically a transformed priest that can no longer cast spells, but still act as a channeller and range extender for your slann. I'd much prefer just taking a troglodon, rather than take a priest and hope I get the transformation. I don't know about your luck, but a 1/6 chance to get the spell isn't exactly good odds.

 

[Pinktaco]

The trog is awful with the current rules. Bam, there is it. No reason to claim otherwise. You can force it into your list and make it work, but that csn be said about all our units.

It's not competitive so if you're more of a casual player use it all you want and live with the fact that you're not playing with the most optimal list ever conceived. Which is perfectly fine when playing casually.

I know that I'm going to have one in my lists in the future, but I've also accepted that it's there because I love the model and because my friends and I are semi casual. Doing fun lists are part of the game and I don't mind losing as long as I'm having fun :3

 

[AcidArcher]

Personally I think priests are awesome, the main thing is they are so cheap so you can lose them if necessary, last game I played turn 2, my skink turned into a chimera, ABSOLUTELY owned, yes I lost my dispel scroll, which hurt a couple times but worth the points any-time.

I normally try and run him in a unit of Saurus if nothing else so when I use wildform(which you can always get.) he is right there to make the Saurus even nastier.

I will happily have a trog in my army but only after I have a 1-2 priests beforehand.

 

[n810]

The Trog might be a decent arcane vassal in a Lord Kroak list, since his spell is direct damage.

 

[Mr Phat]

A troglodon is basically a transformed priest that can no longer cast spells, but still act as a channeller and range extender for your slann.

This is'nt true by a longshot.
Heres why:

1. When you cast Transformation you get access to monsters that eat Troglodons (plural) for breakfast.
It doesn't take much time looking at those stats to see that.

2. You get access to the chance of using a transformation through less than half the trogs cost (we do agree on the odds being small)

The whole idea of Transformation of Kardon is to get an extra monster for cheap points.
if you want a monster and wanna skip the spell part as you describe, why not just get a stegadon!?

----------

All things said there is really only a single core problem with the Trog: its price.

Do one of following and it would see use on my table every time.

a) if it keeps its price it should be better

More attacks: 4 or 5, where 5 might be the max if the following should also be considered.

Roar as a constant passive boost: While a constant boost of 5+ PF seems a little too good at first, it changes when you look to the Celestial Hurricanum from empire that gives +1 to hit to all units within 12'', and also provides a free power dice (not even a channel) EVERY magicphase.
This comes all included at 65ss.


b) if it dosnt get better, it should drop its price.
Bastiladon price, channel included, I would use it.



I really want to like the Troglodon (whats not to like with PF+Poison attacks on a monster?)
I just seriously hope that its born before its time and that 9th rules will make him more usable.

- Scaly skin: back to the "cant get modified beyond 6+" days
- MONSTER: "units with Thunderstomp can make a single stomp on Cavalry, WB, MI and so on..)
- Poison Attacks (melee attacks just need to hit to benefit)