8th Ed. tournament 760 pts

[Killer Angel]

after a loooong hiatus, I'm going to play at a 8th tournament, at 760 pts.

However, the restrictions are pretty harsh:

only 1 hero
max 1 warmachine
max 1 special
max 1 rare

and regarding the hero, is still unclear if named characters can be include or not.

However, until proven wrong, i'll try to do a list with a named character


judging from the rumors, i expect to face VC armies with ethereal units. Of course… given those restrictions, VC are Golden.
Anyway, i need to have some all.commerst lists, but also i must be be prepared to face such a foe.


LIZARDMEN

1st hypotesis

hero:
Tetto 'eko (if I can play it)

troops:
10 skinks skirmishers
10 skinks skirmishers
16 skinks cohort ("bunker" for Tetto)
11 Saurus warriors

Special:
Bastiladon (solar engine)

Rare:
1 salamander hunting pack, w extra handler


2nd hypotesis:

hero:
Tetto 'eko (if I can play it)

troops:
10 skinks skirmishers
10 skinks skirmishers
11 skinks cohort w musician ("bunker" for Tetto)

Special:
16 Temple Guards, full command
sword of battle
standard of discipline

Rare:
1 salamander hunting pack, w extra handler





Now, i don't know if i want to play lizzies at all, if i cannot field Tetto.

That said, the first list brings the Bastiladon, which can be handy to blast possible undead and ethereal… but the fighting troops are poor.

the second list brings a much stronger fighting unit, but to deal with ethereal I've got only Tetto spells and the magical weapon of the revered guardian.


Suggestions?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I have absolutely no experience playing games at such low point levels.

That said, I like the look of list number 2 better. I think Tetto will suck up all of the power dice and there won't be much left for the Bastiladon to do.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

760 points? That’s an unusual limit, it usually would be 750, but never mind.

I prefer playing smaller games, so perhaps I may be of assistance.

Vampire scum have quite weak infantry, and it’s only special and rare units that are ethereal, but they cause fear, so I would certainly not use Skinks here because of their poor leadership and they won’t last long if they get charged even if they’d do pass their fear tests. Indeed I don’t know why Skinks are advocated so much in 8th generally - I can see how they are effective in 7th and previous because enemy infantry could only charge up to 10” max if they were Movement 5, but the increase in maximum charge range in 8th makes it much more difficult for them to get into blowpipe range without getting charged and hacked to pieces. Hexwraiths and Black Knights will have a field day running them down.

Taking a couple of units of about 10-12 Saurus Warriors will give you a more solid battleline and should still leave enough points for Tetto and the Guard. The worst you’ve got to worry about in terms of what Core they have is skeletons and zombies, which even ordinary Saurus can take out pretty easily even if they’re outnumbered 2-1, and their Leadership 8 and Cold-Blooded will help them pass most fear tests.

I can imagine Tetto would be a fun character to use, especially with his buffs to your magic and the ability to more accurately call Comet of Cassandora - this would help obliterate any ethereal units he does have before they can cause trouble in melee. Also the slower movement of your Saurus would be mitigated a little as he can give them vanguard moves. If you can’t take him, a Scar Veteran with magic weapon would be very useful against any ethereal units your opponent brings.

The unit Temple Guard would make a better bunker for Tetto or the Scar Vet I think if he can be placed in such a unit (I don’t see why he can’t), as they’re far tougher and can outfight most non-ethereal units in the VC army, especially 16 of them in such a small game. The Bastiladon would also be a fun choice for incinerating any of their Ethereal units that get too close and could reliably hold a unit of Zombies to stop them bogging down your Saurus, who will be needed elsewhere to stop the Skeletons and Grave Guard, but the Temple Guard would be far more effective in supporting your core Saurus and protecting your general.

I would say a Salamander would be more effective than a Razordon against a chaff army like VC but at such a small points limit, I wouldn’t imagine your opponent would be able to take hordes unless he had a cheap necromancer general, and hordes will be much easier to hit with the comet and divide with multiple Saurus units because they’re so inflexible. If you enjoy using Salamanders, I would say still take him, but if he’s interfering with the points of your Saurus and stopping you taking enough Saurus to reliably hold in combat, I would say drop him to stock up on Saurus.

Hope this helps.

 

[Killer Angel]

First of all, tnx for your analysis

Indeed I don’t know why Skinks are advocated so much in 8th generally - I can see how they are effective in 7th and previous because enemy infantry could only charge up to 10” max if they were Movement 5, but the increase in maximum charge range in 8th makes it much more difficult for them to get into blowpipe range without getting charged and hacked to pieces. Hexwraiths and Black Knights will have a field day running them down.

It's not skinks that are good. It's skink skirmishers that are an excellent unit. They are fast and they can easily avoid to be in the arc range of charges, and they are a solid harassment unit tnx to poisoned attacks. And it's not so simple to shoot at them with the -1 for being skirmishers.

The unit Temple Guard would make a better bunker for Tetto or the Scar Vet I think if he can be placed in such a unit (I don’t see why he can’t), as they’re far tougher and can outfight most non-ethereal units in the VC army, especially 16 of them in such a small game. The Bastiladon would also be a fun choice for incinerating any of their Ethereal units that get too close and could reliably hold a unit of Zombies to stop them bogging down your Saurus, who will be needed elsewhere to stop the Skeletons and Grave Guard, but the Temple Guard would be far more effective in supporting your core Saurus and protecting your general.

IIRC its explicitly said that Tetto can only join a skink cohort. Which i need to keep him alive with LOS.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

It's not skinks that are good. It's skink skirmishers that are an excellent unit. They are fast and they can easily avoid to be in the arc range of charges, and they are a solid harassment unit tnx to poisoned attacks. And it's not so simple to shoot at them with the -1 for being skirmishers.

I was talking about both Skinks and Skirmishers. True, both have a 12" march, but you can't march if you want to shoot, so you can only move 6", meaning they're still vulnerable if a cavalry unit manages to see them in their front arc. Certainly against VC, I would still prefer to take a Saurus unit as you can beat all the non-ethereal VC core choices and some of their specials even with Initiative 1.

IIRC its explicitly said that Tetto can only join a skink cohort. Which i need to keep him alive with LOS.

That honestly sucks so much it hurts. Only able to join one of the worst units in the Lizardmen army is a pain (especially as there are probably too few points to put some Kroxigors in as well). In that case I would say take the Scar Vet with magic weapon option - that eliminates the worry about named characters, boosts your Saurus core unit to help mitigate the disadvantage of their unit size inevitably being quite small and helps to deal with their ethereal units.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

IIRC its explicitly said that Tetto can only join a skink cohort. Which i need to keep him alive with LOS.

He doesn't have to join a skink cohort unit. The rule simply states that if he does, he'll be placed in the second rank of said unit in the exact same fashion as a Slann would in a Temple Guard unit. He may join other units, but will be placed following the normal rules (i.e. on the side because his 40X40 base is incompatible with that of Temple Guard or Saurus).

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

He doesn't have to join a skink cohort unit. The rule simply states that if he does, he'll be placed in the second rank of said unit in the exact same fashion as a Slann would in a Temple Guard unit. He may join other units, but will be placed following the normal rules (i.e. on the side because his 40X40 base is incompatible with that of Temple Guard or Saurus).

View attachment 56603

I looked Tetto up earlier and saw this rule, and thought that this was the case when composing my initial response. I’m hoping that this is correct, otherwise it’ll hit the character pretty hard.

 

[Killer Angel]

Ah, question solved! My mistake…

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Ah, question solved! My mistake…

In that case I’d say Tetto (if he can be used) in Temple Guard bunker with Saurus core all the way then.

 

[Killer Angel]

In that case I’d say Tetto (if he can be used) in Temple Guard bunker with Saurus core all the way then.

Sure!
I'll post a new list

 

[Killer Angel]

hero:
Tetto 'eko

troops:
10 skinks skirmishers
12 Saurus warriors

Special:
16 Temple Guards, full command
sword of battle
standard of discipline

Rare:
1 salamander hunting pack, w extra handler



There, this should be it.
i could possibly field just 11 warriors and a banner…?

 

[Karnus]

In that case I’d say Tetto (if he can be used) in Temple Guard bunker with Saurus core all the way then.

He can't be bunkered with Templeguard, has to be put on the side so is still subject to charges/challenges etc which is a massive shame.

Is it not the most points efficient at this points level to forgo Templeguard in place of more skinks? Do Skrox have a place at this points level?

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

He can't be bunkered with Templeguard, has to be put on the side so is still subject to charges/challenges etc which is a massive shame.

But surely Temple Guard would still be able to 'look out sir' for him?

Is it not the most points efficient at this points level to forgo Templeguard in place of more skinks? Do Skrox have a place at this points level?

I think more cohorts would be a waste of points because they just wouldn't be effective enough unless, as you say, one or more Kroxigors is fitted into the cohort. Then it would actually be able to do something in melee if it gets charged (which it probably will because of the increased 8th Edition charge ranges), but even then a unit of 16 Temple Guard would still be a lot better in combat.

Again, I'm honestly surprised to see so much advocation for Skinks, especially against an enemy with mostly weak infantry and cavalry like VC - it's unlikely any monsters will be seen in the opposing army because of the low points limit and limits on Specials and Rares. In my opinion the only use for Skinks in this situation is to fill out your points if you can't fit in any more special or rare units and don't have enough points for another Saurus unit.

 

[Karnus]

But surely Temple Guard would still be able to 'look out sir' for him?



I think more cohorts would be a waste of points because they just wouldn't be effective enough unless, as you say, one or more Kroxigors is fitted into the cohort. Then it would actually be able to do something in melee if it gets charged (which it probably will because of the increased 8th Edition charge ranges), but even then a unit of 16 Temple Guard would still be a lot better in combat.

Again, I'm honestly surprised to see so much advocation for Skinks, especially against an enemy with mostly weak infantry and cavalry like VC - it's unlikely any monsters will be seen in the opposing army because of the low points limit and limits on Specials and Rares. In my opinion the only use for Skinks in this situation is to fill out your points if you can't fit in any more special or rare units and don't have enough points for another Saurus unit.

Yes he should still get a look out sir! As he is infantry the same as the Templeguard.

Against VC I'm not sure what I would suggest, the salamander is an auto include as you are bound to face a few hordes

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Against VC I'm not sure what I would suggest, the salamander is an auto include as you are bound to face a few hordes

Even at such a low limit? 16 regular Saurus can face down 30 Skeletons for example without need for a Salamander. An all-Saurus list would be quite capable of levelling any VC hordes down to size in combat.

 

[Karnus]

Even at such a low limit? 16 regular Saurus can face down 30 Skeletons for example without need for a Salamander. An all-Saurus list would be quite capable of levelling any VC hordes down to size in combat.

I'd be cautious about entering wars of attrition even at such low points limits. Then again I have little experience at this level.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I'd be cautious about entering wars of attrition even at such low points limits. Then again I have little experience at this level.

I have played games around this level and beaten horde armies (in my case Skaven and Greenskins but VC are similar in every respect except they would suffer extra casualties through Unstable rather than run away) by using smaller Saurus units against their Strength 3 hordes - the 5+ to wound is a real pain for them to deal with coupled with your 4+ save and the extra attacks for Saurus in the front rank help to rack up as many enemy casualties as possible - the triumph of quality over quantity. I can assure you that unless the dice gods give you particularly bad save rolls and the enemy particularly good wound rolls, this tactic will work.

Of course ordinary Saurus would suffer more casualties against hordes of S4 chaff such as Stormvermin or Grave Guard, but that's why I feel the Temple Guard should be included as the Special choice, as they'll be attacking with S5 so will be wounding on 3s - use them to engage these stronger units and use the core Saurus to break chaff units with S3 and below.

Note that this will only work reliably with Saurus, Ogres and Chaos Warriors as they are the only T4 quality core units that can put out such a quantity of attacks - I would use two or more similarly small units of, say, Dwarfs or High Elves to try and engage enemy hordes because they only have 1 attack each and the greater number of enemy attacks need to be divided up to cause fewer casualties on each unit.

 

[airjamy]

Your lists looks pretty good. I wonder if going full denial might be even better, skink cloud style. Do you know the size of the table you will be playing on? If it is standard sized, full denial will be even better. I would then not even maybe play the Bastiladon, but on the other hand the long range magic might be good.