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8th Ed. To Kill a Daemon Prince

Lizardmatt - its good to see the detailed stats for the oldblood, he is a better counter than I expected. I think that opens up a real possibility for some oldblood led lists with magic support coming from Tetto Techo and a beast priest or two.

I still dont think a tank scar vet can take the punishment though :-p

An oldblood list backed with beast priests (or even a slaan backed with a coule of level2 beast priests) would also lend itself to Andrinor's suggestion of using savage beast. I think you would want 4-5 levels on beast magic to ensure getting savage beast or amber spear in addition to wildform. From the sounds of things if it came to magic time with a prince engaged with a tanky oldblood the chaos player would need to be dispelling savage beast and wildform......I like it. Alternatively if it were at range and had to be dispelling commet, thunderbolt, and amber spear, that would also force some tough choices on the chaos player.

Good ideas here people......now to write some army lists and see how it all comes together.......
 
My plan is to take 6-9 Kroxigors and a Scar-Vet Cowboy with 1+ re-rollable, GW, and Other Trickster's Shard. Try to get him in combat with the Kroxes and charged in the scar-vet after a turn should be able to take him out. The large Krox unit is largely because of my painted models available, but I think it'll do well as I need help taking out hard targets. Hopefully I'll roll Amber Spear if I take Tehenhauin or 2 level 2 beasts.
 
CookieGuy said:
My plan is to take 6-9 Kroxigors and a Scar-Vet Cowboy with 1+ re-rollable, GW, and Other Trickster's Shard. Try to get him in combat with the Kroxes and charged in the scar-vet after a turn should be able to take him out. The large Krox unit is largely because of my painted models available, but I think it'll do well as I need help taking out hard targets. Hopefully I'll roll Amber Spear if I take Tehenhauin or 2 level 2 beasts.
Click to expand...

So the Scar Vet charges in, the prince goes Challenge and the vet get's squished, while the krox watch.
You can't combo hero + unit to kill hero.

-Matt
 
Tetengo said:
The Old Blood is a good option, but it's 260 points, which really limits the ability to take a Slann. Could be a good in one off games, but not much use in a tournament setting if it takes too much away from the rest of the list.
Click to expand...

@ 2400, you can still get a slaan with 40 points of stuff. @ 2500, you get 65 points of stuff.
You just have to accept that you have a softer magic phase when you bring the guy that can take out a daemon prince of nurgle.

That's a big deal. Daemon Princes of Nurgle are one of the hardest targets in the game, and he takes him out.

How about a blood thirster with ASF? Old Blood takes 0.97 wounds on the charge, 0.44 after he's charged. Old blood deals 1.29 with another 0.06 from his mount. The 4th time the old blood swings, he drops the Blood Thirster. Blood thirster would drop the Old Blood on the 5th round.
Yeah, that's right, the 260 point old blood on average will take out a 425 point blood thirster. The Thirster would need some decent gifts to swing the combat in his favor.

The Oldblood could pick up the Other Tricksters shard to be even better....


-Matt
 
Agreed again, with the number of warriors at tournaments having a good counter to a daemon prince is essential enough to force some tough questions regarding the slaan. Personally I like running character light armys (solo slaan as my only character is normally the way I go)....but Im a bit odd in that regard. For most, having a slaan with a single toy or two and a scar vet bsb is probably a small price to pay for having the oldblood as a direct counter to the prince (with no magic support required - I think this needs highlighting as another big deal!)

I dont think the oldblood could take a thirster with anything more than a lesser gift. As soon as they hig greater or exulted gifts they get access to weapons that will undo the oldblood. greater has +2S or no armour saves. Exulted has the eternal blade (+D3 S, A, WS, I, for an average of WS10, S8, A8, I10 for the thirster). Round here it is considered acceptable to combo this with the ASF sword as well (although I realise this is comped out in many parts of the world). However a blood thirster is much easier to kill than the prince. No armour makes mass poisen a great and easy counter for us, and even krox only need 5+ to hit it in cc.......come to think of it I dont think I have ever lost a game against a greater daemon with lizards

The great unclean one could be a pain to kill, but that can fly so can be chaffed to oblivion.

Im hoping to get a game against warriors this week. So far my planned counter to the prince will be a 6 strong krox unit combined with an ancient steg backed by a high loremaster slaan. If I cant keep it out of combat Im hoping the combo of hand of glory on the krox and wildform on a charging steg (assuming one spell gets cast) should do for it. If it holds back I'll be trying to chip away with arcane unforging and searing doom. I'll report back with results.
 
Boothy Baby said:
Agreed again, with the number of warriors at tournaments having a good counter to a daemon prince is essential enough to force some tough questions regarding the slaan. Personally I like running character light armys (solo slaan as my only character is normally the way I go)....but Im a bit odd in that regard. For most, having a slaan with a single toy or two and a scar vet bsb is probably a small price to pay for having the oldblood as a direct counter to the prince (with no magic support required - I think this needs highlighting as another big deal!)

I dont think the oldblood could take a thirster with anything more than a lesser gift. As soon as they hig greater or exulted gifts they get access to weapons that will undo the oldblood. greater has +2S or no armour saves. Exulted has the eternal blade (+D3 S, A, WS, I, for an average of WS10, S8, A8, I10 for the thirster). Round here it is considered acceptable to combo this with the ASF sword as well (although I realise this is comped out in many parts of the world). However a blood thirster is much easier to kill than the prince. No armour makes mass poisen a great and easy counter for us, and even krox only need 5+ to hit it in cc.......come to think of it I dont think I have ever lost a game against a greater daemon with lizards

The great unclean one could be a pain to kill, but that can fly so can be chaffed to oblivion.

Im hoping to get a game against warriors this week. So far my planned counter to the prince will be a 6 strong krox unit combined with an ancient steg backed by a high loremaster slaan. If I cant keep it out of combat Im hoping the combo of hand of glory on the krox and wildform on a charging steg (assuming one spell gets cast) should do for it. If it holds back I'll be trying to chip away with arcane unforging and searing doom. I'll report back with results.
Click to expand...

Eternal Blade is a magic weapon. Even if you can take both, you can only use 1, as per magic weapon rules.
If the Thirster (or any greater daemon for that matter) doesn't go for armor, the skinks poison should drop him without much trouble.

The Oldblood build has a very good chance and beating down any other beatstick in the game. He also has the distinct advantage of not being the general and giving up an extra 100 points if you lose him. He goes toe to toe with combat lords on dragons pretty effectively, usually killing the dragon before he gets taking out a few turns later; and usually winning combat every step of the way.

I'm going to try running old blood + minimal slaan, go high magic and cycle out one spell for life. It will give me a temple guard block of 5+ regen, and give me 2 spells that heal.

-Matt
 
Yes the multiple magic weapons thing for daemons is a bit dodge! The confusion stems from the rulebook FAQ regarding stat bonuses from spells and magic items and specifically site the fencers blades as always giving the bearer WS10 even when he isnt attacking with them (so they could be used to defend agains bladewind for example). The eternal blade has the same wording as the fencers blades so is argued to provide the stat bonus even when not being used to attack with (wording is "the bearer of the xx gets x,y,z bonus......) As such the daemon then attacks with a weapon like the sword of striking where it states that "attacks made with the xx sword....."

Since it is played in a variety of ways across the world I dont think it can be counted on, or ruled out.

Either way we have drifted a bit off topic here.
 
The problem I have is there a local player who builds his list around spawning new demon princes. 3 units of chosen and a war shrine with other heroes and champions throughout. The actual list is not that imposing, but when he gets 1 or 2 demon princes a game, it starts getting out of hand very quick, especially at lower point levels.
 
Isn't that really inefficient because the odds of it happening are so low?

Regardless, sounds like a really unfun list. Daemon Princes are borderline OP as they are. Bringing one, then getting lucky and having another one pop out every 1 game in 12 is one thing. Playing somebody who actively tries to make it happen is another. I mean, it sounds like without it happening he doesn't do very well, but when it does he rolls you over. Its the equivalent of relying solely on 6-dicing something to win a game.
 
You would be surprised how often he rolls demon princes. Bound spell from the shrine and D3 get to take the test using 3D6 and choosing any two. Recently in a 1500 point game he spawned a demon prince turn 1, then another turn 3, and a third turn 6 which he chose to decline (rolled 6, 6, and a 4 and chose a 10 instead of 12) as he was already in a winning combat. So that's 3 demon princes. Now that is certainly not the norm and it was a pretty small game, but it's fairly common (most games) that he spawns at least 1 demon prince.
 
Created Daemon princes aren't as hard to kill. 3+ armor at best, lets saurus warriors do three times as many wounds, and those daemon princes lack the ability to heal themselves.
The free prince is still good, just not as epic.

-Matt
 
Scar Vet with LA and Piranha Blade on Carnosaur wins against Daemon Prince with 1+ and Nurgle right at half the time. (Not bad for a hero!)
 
Uh, what? No, it really does't.

The standard build for a Daemon Prince is Charmed Shield, Sword of Striking, and Dragonbane Gem with Mark of Nurgle.

Because of its initiative, the Prince goes first.

Attacking the Scar-Vet:

5 attacks - hitting on 2s = 5 hits (accounting for rounding).
Wounding on 3s = 3 wounds.
Scar-Vet armour save 3+ (5+ SS, +1 mounted, +1 light armour) -3 = 6+.
Saving less than one.

So, even if the Vet gets lucky and makes that 1/6 chance to save one wound, he still ies outright anyway.

But lets say the Prince fancies some dinosaur and attacks the Carnosaur.
Same number of hits and wounds.
Carno gets no saves, so is down to 1 wound.

We'll go with the second scenario, or some pure luck, and say that both survive to attack back.

Scar-Vet, with 4, hits on 5s. He gets one hit, with a 50% chance of wounding. Let's say he gets lucky, and manages a wound. The Daemon Prince then has a 50% of saving it on armour, and a 33% chance on ward saves. Not accounting for Multiple Wounds, its 0.22 wounds inflicted on average. The average of MW is 2, so if the Scar-Vet gets really really lucky, he deals two wounds - otherwise, he needs 5 rounds of combat; by which point he will most certainly be dead.

The Carnosaur has 4 attacks and hits on 6s. Lets say he also gets lucky, and scores one hit that then wounds because its on 2s. The Daemon Prince then get a 5+ armour save, followed by a 5+ ward save. That's the equivalent of 0.24 wounds on average. Again, if he gets very very lucky and makes that one wound, chances are it multiplies to 2 wounds.

So, if both models survive to attack they have a very, very slim chance of killing the Daemon Prince. But its not 50% - its more like 0.46%.

And chances are the Prince kills the Scar-Vet first anyway.
 
So this is a mistake that a lot of people make, but you can't just use flat fractions to do probabilities when you're throwing fistfuls of dice; it's a binomial distribution, and treating it as flat makes all kinds of errors creep in. If you don't want to do the tedious math you can use a simulation (those are pretty easy to put together; I just write mine in C).

Now, full disclosure: I wasn't accounting for the sword of striking and I was assuming the DP hits the carnosaur first (apparently a bad idea, go figure ::grin:: ). Giving the DP the sword means about a 30% chance of killing him; giving the DP the sword and having him attack the SV first means only about an 8% chance of killing him.

I'll do a spreadsheet later and figure out the expected wound distribution for carnies and SVs attacking DPs with a couple of different weapons; it might be interesting.

So, even if the Vet gets lucky and makes that 1/6 chance to save one wound, he still ies outright anyway.
Click to expand...

This is the kind of error you can expect from using flat distributions, btw. The Scar-Vet has about a 23.7%% chance of surviving the first round (with sword of striking on the DP). That's not huge, but it's also not inconsiderable, especially when you're discussing success rates in the 30-50 % range.

EDIT: Fixed an incorrect number.
 
Thanks! My math isn't the best, so always happy to be corrected by someone with a better idea.
 
Anyone who has some more experiences to share?

Ive been trying with the ancient stegadon.. but it just doesnt cut it. Ive tried to kill it several times with 800 pts on one single DP even (stega, bastil, saurus), and it just doesnt work. I cant really ignore it either unless I tailor my list and my opponent charges a random unimportant unit..

its starting to piss me off :(
 
Really, the best option is to bait it into charging something that can tarpit it for a while. A big unit of Skinks with a champion, for instance (Saurus work, but they are more expensive) or a Scar-Vet on a Cold One with a 1+ re-rollable. Tank it out until you get a good magic phase where you can reliable get a bunch of buffs off to kill it.
 
One of the biggest problems I'm seeing here is some people are discussing this in a vacuum. I, unfortunately, have a LOT of experience with playing against Warriors and Daemon Princes in specific. So let me expound on this, and I'll apologize ahead of time for this seeming cynical... well it is cynical, but you get the point.

There are two other units in the Warriors army that you MUST account for in this combination: the unkillable BSB and Skullcrushers. Why? Because the BSB is a direct counter to almost everything we can put on the table to kill a Prince, with a high strength (usually 7) and amazing defenses (1+/3++ re-rolling 1s), and he's going to be as fast or faster than the scar-vet or old blood. Meanwhile, Skullcrushers devour any tarpit you care to put on the field and is... along with the BSB... as fast as pretty much anything we put on the field.

These three units, usually there are two 3-man units of Skullcrushers but this can vary, are also accompanied by Chimera and a smattering of chariots. Ever been charged by two Chimera? If not allow me to say on average they'll drop 16 strength 6/WS 4 attacks on a target plus thunderstomps and possibly breath weapons. And they fly...

So the point of this is that we, as Lizardmen, completely loose the initiative against forces like this. The heavy hitting portions of the army are so much faster than the backbone of our army that the Warriors will mostly be able to pick and choose their battles. That means that almost any counter you put out there to go against the Daemon Prince will get two units of warhounds parked between it and the Prince, and since the Prince flies it doesn't care what's there covering it. Against shooting, he's just put a Chimera there and either completely hide the Prince or give him hard cover.

The great bow, an Amber Spear, even the laser from the Bastilidon, can hurt a daemon prince. That isn't the problem. The problem is that they cannot hurt the Prince and fend off the rest, and it takes two or three of these things to have a reasonable chance of killing the Prince. Worse, if you just hurt the Prince odds are they'll have Soul Feeder and can get back to full wounds in a round or two of close combat.

OK what is our counter to this? There isn't one I've found. The best you can really do is minimize the damn thing's damage and try to kill the rest of the army. Beast magic can help, wildform helps wound and helps prevent him from getting Soul Feeder rolls and a lucky Amber Spear can kill the damned thing in one shot, but it doesn't really swing things in your favor. I wouldn't advise even trying the Bastilidon on the Prince unless there is no other target, its better used against Chimera. Destroying his magic items is an idea, but ultimately he'll probably be in combat the very next round so it won't matter in the long run. You can't throw Searing Doom into combat.

The large unit of Kroxigor are an interesting thought, but they're just such a massive investment in points that I don't think I'd use them as my primary counter Prince option. In a horde they'll put around three wounds onto the Prince a turn, though they'll probably give one back on the second round of combat but that won't help the Daemon. However, I have to go back to a previous point: the Warriors have a massive maneuver advantage. If the Prince doesn't want to fight a horde of Kroxigor then odds are he won't.

You can bet I'll keep reading this thread though, because if someone can come up with a good counter I'll damn sure try it out. I hate those things...

Pyre
 
what about a unit of cowboys.

we are talking 2400 points so 600 worth of heros.

how about 4 cowboys in the one unit each with either a 1+ save with reroll or decent ward. all with great weapons of course.

hitting on 4s and wounding on 3s or 2s?

not sure the princes T.

so each cowboy has 4A so thats 12 in total with the average chance of getting 2 PF extras... 14 which means 7 hit and 5 or 6 wound he is saving on 5+ and 5++ so he saves 50% of them?

if you want dont run them as a single unit... but just place them 1 inch beside each other.if he charges a chimera at them it can only impact one cowboy and the others go hurting... one cowboy should be able to eventually kill a chimera wouldnt it? you could also surround these guys with skink skirmishers so they cant be charged... with small gaps to allow you to charge out from between them.
 
if you try this and he challenges as a response... next time make sure the cowboys are seperated... or one is well equipped to either never die to him... or has a chance to kill him outright.
 
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