8th Ed. thoughts/ideas/experiences with templeguards

[Pinktaco]

I'd like to talk about these.

I really like them. With 2A each (front) at S5 they hit hard. AP banner and they'll shred cavalry. AS4+ is good and 3+ against shooting is sweet, should it occure.

Their biggest downside IMO is their WS. They'll still mostly hit on 4+ without buffs.

But how do you usually field them? I've been trying them as a horde 40 models) which have been a mixed bag of success.
Are they worth hording up?

I also thought about a double guard combination, say 2 x 24 guards working together?

One thing, however, that sort of plagues me is that guards feel almost obligatory since they're our only elite infantry. Am I wrong in this? What can be used instead?

 

[NexS1]

Hey Mate,
My issue with them is not their WS, but fact that they are scary enough for people to send their big killers after the unit. 4+ armour is nothing against great weapons or armour piercing or a combination of armour killing things.
You usually put all your eggs into one basket when you take TG and a slann (bunker the slann, put a good character in the unit to protect him, take enough TG to withstand a few rounds of combat), so it makes me sad when they get shreaded to pieces before they even get to strike.

I had some good success with taking Slann (high magic - hand of glory), and an old blood (halberd, AoF) into the unit. If you fail the charge, walk between worlds into combat.

The other thing is, I like to take bastiladon (solar engine) and Ancient Steg (EOTG) for +1 Initiative and 6++ Ward save.

 

[Mr Phat]

If you fail the charge, walk between worlds into combat.

almost spilled my morning coffee there...can you do this!??
My though is "no" as you cant march into combat...can you?


I love Templeguard..sadly they never seem to live up to my expectations.
They woop regular infantry...sure..but so do Saurus.
They GET wooped by most elite infantry...as do Saurus
my experience is that they dont do well for their cost, compared to other Elites in the same price range, and that regular Saurus do the same job cheaper.

I think you can compare the "TG or Saurus" to the "Saurus or Skink" talk.
TG die just like Saurus, but at a greater PTS cost.
They do have S5 attacks, but that never really made that big a difference in my games (maybe its the meta)
but to me they should have S6 to differentiate themselves enough from the regular Saurus.
WS4 is fine IMO.

I bought a bunch of the guys just before the book released as I was counting on that they would be made beasts..especially because of the rumour that we would get High Magic and that the HE attribute gave a wardsave (TG with a SLann made wardsave <3) but no.... ( </3)

If they where able to use shields+halberd in combat and get a parry-save , then I think we could call them elite, but not even being able to get that GW is shameful.


____The following could be qualified as an off-topic rant. read at own account__________
When I look through the HE book and see that White Lions comes at the same price I get a sad feeling.

HE players usually defends their "good" units by saying "we pay for them!" claiming their units are expensive for what they do.

Compare a TG to a WL and tell me how that works out.
Gets to strike first with a GW
Stubborn (without a slann)
also +3 vs shooting
higher WS
same S
T3 (but that dosnt matter here really)

but AHA! WL only have 1 attack!.......but fights in an extra rank so it kinda evens out...and has smaller base-size which means they can get more guys in contact.

_____________End of Rant___________________


Can anyone tell me what a suitable matchup for these guys is? and please let it be one that a normal block of Saurus couldnt take care of?

I have a painted block of 30+ and I want to use it but as Special is already highly-contested and I can use saurus to fill Core it has just stopped feeling like the right choice -.-

 

[NexS1]

Don't mind me, I got my sub phases wrong. The spell does it in the matching phase, somehow I read it to be in the same sub phase as random movements.
Haha disregard! Good pickup!


Also, in regards to high elves and point cost. I'm also a HE player and wholeheartedly agree that the cost evens out.
WL, for example are WS 5 S3 I5 A1. TG have 1 lower WS, +1 attack, strength and toughness and predatory fighter.
Coupled with slann, TG are also stubborn and ItP. I think it's fairly even, more or less.

If we want to talk about cheap and overpowered, don't start me on WoC! Hahaha

 

[Pinktaco]

You're actually right. That is something that have bothered me for a while now. Whenever I field the guards they're usually the victim of some sort of rape squad.

I actually think they work well for their cost, it's usually that people see them as a much bigger threat than I consider them to be.. Or well, I know they can hurt things, but still <.<

Also - wouldn't it be better to compare our guards with swordmasters? They have WS6, S5, 2A. The biggest difference is no stubborn. Or am I missing something? I've never played against them

 

[Ondjage]

Also - wouldn't it be better to compare our guards with swordmasters? They have WS6, S5, 2A. The biggest difference is no stubborn. Or am I missing something? I've never played against them

Swordmasters are glasscannons - they will flay anything with 30 some str 5 hit on 3+ attacks, but they are T3 and 5+ armour save, so they are very weak VS magic and shooting.

 

[Pinktaco]

How about the white lions?

 

[skillfull_dan]

Temple Guard arent terrible since they had their points reduced, however they have a major problem. Their purpose is not to slaughter enemy infantry it is to keep your slann alive so you can win the game.

They are special (elite) infantry, and they cannot go toe to toe with other armies elites. In many cases they cannot even throw down with core infantry (warriors of chaos, ironguts, GW dwarf warriors, plaguebearers, etc).

Dont get me wrong, they can and should be used aggressively, but the reason to use them aggressively is so we can fight on our own magic phase, without our magic phase they will often take devestating loses.

 

[skillfull_dan]

How about the white lions?

Point for point white lions shred temple guard in combat, and are perma-stubborn to boot. WL are a block where the answer is salamanders, poison, redirectors, and magic

Anything with GW is a bad matchup for temple guard. A large cohort block with poison should do great against them though.

 

[Mr Phat]

Temple Guard arent terrible since they had their points reduced, however they have a major problem. Their purpose is not to slaughter enemy infantry it is to keep your slann alive so you can win the game.

and die doing so..*BOOM!* MISCAST!

I hate that this is their sole purpose. We NEED fighty infantry and of all the disappointments I had with the new book (I have settled now) that we didn't get that solid combat unit was the biggest.

If they at least gave us the opportunity to equip them differently, they deserve that GW as much as other armies.

They are special (elite) infantry, and they cannot go toe to toe with other armies elites. In many cases they cannot even throw down with core infantry (warriors of chaos, ironguts, GW dwarf warriors, plaguebearers, etc).

I hate this even more.

Dont get me wrong, they can and should be used aggressively, but the reason to use them aggressively is so we can fight on our own magic phase, without our magic phase they will often take devestating loses.

and even doing so is a risk, as you have no guarantee that you get "That one combat spell" off, which means that you charged your fellas to their doom.


...oh boy is it a cruel fate to be a Temple Guard!

 

[olderplayer]

Don't you have to put it all in context? TG are worth their points. They have some bad matchups but are clearly superior to almost all core infantry, like almost every special unit in the game. They hold their own or win with the slann more often than not in most all-comers tourneys. The key, from experience, is to make the unit larger (like 36+ models at 2500 points), reduce the risk of miscasts burning down the unit, and make sure that the unit is able to hold up to the end. You need to have the redirector and supporting core unit of saurus plus other aids to win.

High Elves WL are probably undercosted and tough to deal with but you have better redirectors with shooting, salamanders and poison shooting to deal with war machines and general infantry. A BOTWD bannered white lion horde led by an annointed with High Magic casters generating boosted ward saves is a pain in the rear to deal with, especially with archer core and RBTs picking off chaff and providing cover. BUT, you should be able to hold that unit up and deal with the rest of the army long enough that the TG will survive and maybe kill out enough characters in the WL unit to give up minimal VPs at the end and gain some in the exchange. I saw a matchup of two top tourney players playing the WL horde aginst the TG block army and the LM army won in the end by killing more characters in the WL unit and killing most of the other stuff on the table and delaying combat with the WL unit long enough that the TG unit could not be killed off. One oldblood tooled up with a GW did wonders in this regard in terms of being able to take out the vulnerable wizard, BSB or even the Annointed if in the WL unit and the saurus ran over a lot of stuff before coming back to aid in the WL v TG combat.

Prior to the new army book, I would suggest theat LM were the top army competitively with the new WoC book a close second. Cutting the point cost of TG and giving them PF, made them better in the new book but you lost a lot with the slann losing the free discipline and losing the old becalming and loremaster and +1 PD every cast disciplines (plus cupped hands) and the sallies were made both more expensive and less effective.

 

[Scalenex]

Well said olderplayer. Context is key. Temple Guard (and every other unit we have) should be looked at in the context of how they work with the whole army and not how they perform in a matchup against something with similar points cost.

 

[Qupakoco]

Also everyone should keep in mind that most armies have nightmares of facing TG with a miscast-proof Slann from 7th edition. Loremaster in Life/Light helped a lot too.

On that note, if you are having trouble keeping these guys around.... Why not start swapping your High Magic spells for Life? You can conceivably get all the important ones in a couple magic phases. Toughness 6 or 8... Regeneration... Regrowth... Dweller's....

 

[kroxigor01]

Prior to the new army book, I would suggest theat LM were the top army competitively with the new WoC book a close second.

I seriously recommend not playing vanilla. No one wants to play lose because you couldn't hurt a 600 point Daemon Prince, or because the opponent irresistible forced Dwellers or Purple Sun.

ETC rules (http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=119292&start=0) are far superior in terms of making for an interesting game.

As for Temple Guard, I think they are about on par in value per points with Saurus Warriors. ~27% more expensive for the following gains:

WS3 -> WS4
~33% more damage attacking WS3
~33% less damage from WS4 opponents
~50% more damage attacking WS7 and WS8
Caveat: Upgrade useless vs WS1, 2, 5, 9 and 10

S4 -> S5
25% better against T3*
33% better against T4
50% better against T5
100% better against T6
20% better against 5+ AS*
25% better against 4+ AS
33% better against 3+ AS
50% better against 2+ AS
100% better again 1+ AS
Caveat: Upgrade useless vs T1, 2, 7, 8, 9 and 10 and AS 6+ and '-'.
* technically worse per point than Warriors, but combat res is a thing so sometimes 25% damage for 27% points is worth it.

AS 4+ -> AS 3+ (shooting only)
~30% more resilient to your average missile.

I1 -> I2
Pretty useless except against initiative attacks which your opponent won't always aim at the TG anyway (I1 and 2 monsters surely higher priority, Warriors probably higher priority because they take double damage).

Access to a magic standard and magic items
Cute.

Sacred Duty and Guardians Special Rule
Obviously by far the best bunker for a Slann.

Conclusion?
IMO taking as many TG as you can in lieu of Warriors is good idea. Note that importantly they have ~22% fewer wounds per point but that is almost the only downside. I could very much imagine taking minimum core and then only TG.

I've talked only about TG vs Warriors, but what about TG vs other combat units? Kroxigors, Stegs, Ancient Stegs, Ripperdactyls, Saurus Cavalry? Imo only Ancient Stegs and Ripperdactyls have any merits over TG but that analysis is obviously far more complex than what is possible with TG vs Warriors.

What do you fellas think of this list?

Slann - BSB, Focus of Mystery 360
Skink Skirmishers - 10
Skink Skirmishers - 10
Skink Skirmishers - 10
Saurus Warriors - 16, musician, standard 196
Saurus Warriors - 16, musician, standard 196
Temple Guard - 16, full command, Charmed Shield**, Potion of Strength, Banner of Eternal Flame 314
Temple Guard - 16, full command, Ironcurse Icon, Razor Standard 304
Ripperdactyls - 3
Ripperdactyls - 3
Ripperdactyls - 3
Terradons - 3
Terradons - 3
Ancient Steg - sharpened horns 250
2400 points

**will the Charmed Shield trigger if he isn't holding it? If not, replace with Luckstone or Warrior's Bane? Something to keep him alive to strike at +3 strength.

Please criticise and improve, I whipped this up quick and expect it to be crap.

 

[Mr Phat]

What do you fellas think of this list?

Slann - BSB, Focus of Mystery 360
Skink Skirmishers - 10
Skink Skirmishers - 10
Skink Skirmishers - 10
Saurus Warriors - 16, musician, standard 196
Saurus Warriors - 16, musician, standard 196
Temple Guard - 17, full command, Charmed Shield**, Potion of Strength, Banner of Eternal Flame 303
Temple Guard - 16, full command, Ironcurse Icon, Razor Standard 304
Ripperdactyls - 3
Ripperdactyls - 3
Ripperdactyls - 3
Terradons - 3
Terradons - 3
Ancient Steg - sharpened horns 250
2399 points

**will the Charmed Shield trigger if he isn't holding it? If not, replace with Luckstone or Warrior's Bane? Something to keep him alive to strike at +3 strength.

Please criticise and improve, I whipped this up quick and expect it to be crap.

May I suggest you take that to the "Lizardmen Army List" forum?
I have some input for it, but it should be done in the appropriate forum.

On that note, if you are having trouble keeping these guys around.... Why not start swapping your High Magic spells for Life? You can conceivably get all the important ones in a couple magic phases. Toughness 6 or 8... Regeneration... Regrowth... Dweller's....

thats 4 spells you want to swap. why not just take life on the slann? (oh I miss Plaque of tepok and Loremaster!) Of all the lores I think Life is the one least versatile to swap into, as you want as many of the spells for synergy as possible. I rarely swap more than 3 spells from HM (tempest, convocation and soul quench are my main 1casts)

 

[kroxigor01]

May I suggest you take that to the "Lizardmen Army List" forum?
I have some input for it, but it should be done in the appropriate forum.

It pertains to the topic. Obviously the discussion of using a unit involves discussing the list that unit could be used in.

Also, you quoted a misprinted list that I then edited.

Hmm I think 3x5 Chameleon skinks would be better than the 2x3 Terradons for this army, War Machines being quite damaging while enemy chaff stupid versus the Rippers.

 

[Centurion]

Do temple guard only work in big units? Is there any point in a unit of less than 20? I ask because I have 10 on my painting table at the moment and they look like they are a bit of a pain to paint!

 

[slann5]

i use to play 20 TG yet when the slann miscast they die no good as a fighting unit have 10 of them protect your slann use kroxigor or cold ones.

 

[kroxigor01]

Do temple guard only work in big units? Is there any point in a unit of less than 20? I ask because I have 10 on my painting table at the moment and they look like they are a bit of a pain to paint!

There is an obsession with big units going around that I think is stupid. Especially for expensive Saurus who are very ineffective at support attacks (especially with the RAW reading of Predatory Fighter, in that only front rank models can trigger it). A Saurus unit shouldn't be afraid of attrition, it puts out pretty much the same damage with only the front rank left and a Slann is no longer trapped in a maimed TG unit. The only reason not to take Saurus in units of 12 maximum is their low initiative (and the possibility of being hit by missiles).

Other armies like empire routinely get units of ~30 or more because they are cheap and always lose combats so need the steadfast. A Saurus block of 30 sets you back ~350! I would argue that a block of 20 + support units is almost always better.

TG get Stubborn with a Slann in the unit to boot, why on earth should you be scrambling for ranks! Save the points, take some Terradons and control the game.

 

[Pinktaco]

I dont like to have a slann in the TG bunker. When he blows sh1t up the unit is useless and buying him just for stubborn is the dumbest thing.