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AoS Thoughts after Shadowstrike, Sunclaw, and FoS Battles

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ProfessorSkink

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Hey all,

Long time viewer, first time poster to share with everyone my thoughts on the new army tome after three battles I've had over the last two weeks. I'll post my list comps in the other thread and detail more specific tactics and successes but I wanted to do an overview here.

To start, I personally think the Coalesced are the stronger option in my opinion. Granted when I ran the FoS faction I only had one slann and no astrolith but without the summoning power of the old book I wasn't able to summon a ten man saurus unit until top of battleround three, which after two lost priority rolls was too little too late. The 10 Bravery is nice but it's nowhere near as powerful as Scaly Skin, which kept my 40 man skink units around well into battle round three after getting them into combat turn one.

I ran two games with Coalesced Shadowstrike and Sunclaw, and these Temple Hosts are amazing. My sunclaw 2000 point list had 90 saurus, when I stuck a skink starpriest into the 40 man blocks they deleted every unit I charged them into. When I marked a unit with Shadowstrike and got full buffs on the skinks they hit harder than I thought possible. I wanted to try Fangs of Sotek Starborn to see how it plays, and the initial speed boost is amazing, closing the board turn one and getting shots and charges with skink clouds is insane. They just don't hold up as long as Coalesced skinks do and even in that list you get +1 to hit with Shadowstrike. I think the hordes this army can field now with the buffs from heroes can pack a serious punch. The mortal wound output on skinks and saurus had my opponents stunned. I cannot imagine the skink heroes will go this long without a nerf or a significant points increase, taking a starpriest and priest for every 40 man unit seems to be mandatory with the damage they can get.

For reference my opponents in the first game with Shadowstrike was Ironjaws teamed up with Mawtribes and my ally was an Everchosen player (very thematic), the Sunclaw was against a SoD Despoiler list, and the FoS game was against Ironjaws again. If anyone can share some strategy or ideas for the Starborn to give their list some better legs I'd love to hear some thoughts, since I think they underperformed compared to the Coalesced. Hopefully this helps with some of the new lists we're putting together, I'll also share my lists in the other thread.
 
I feel that both starborn and coalesced are both very viable. I think I will be playing coalesced more often but I think starborn is actually more likely to win games. The teleport is just so powerful. Getting to objectives and holding them win the game. As for summoning i dont think you should be trying to pump out as many units as possible but instead you should be looking to use it to replace skink priests or starpriests on turn 3. 10 skinks can be a nice speed bump if you are worried about a charge and need a screen but for the most part a small unsupported unit won't be doing much. And the flexibility of it is what makes it good.

For summoning I think my go to will be more skink priests because they are just so good. If my starpriests dies then I can bring it back. If my slann is getting targeted hard then a unit of saurus guard are a nice addition and skinks are for blocking a charge. But other than that I don't see myself summoning much else but that is fine.
 
The only thing that would ever make me take Coalesced is Scaly Skin. And I find LoSaT to better than it. Koatl's Claw is decent, but FoS and DT are both better imo.
 
I think the “on paper” benefits of coalesced make them look quite strong compared to starborne.

Add to this fact that we tend to look at starborne with a biased eye since we lost double LoSaT, we lost Summoning, we lost Wary a Fighter, and it’s easy to think “how am I going to win with these guys now.”

I felt this way initially, but after much reflection (and time to kill, much of it spent on this forum), I have been leaning more toward Starborne lists. My current models tend to fare a bit better for starborne (no knights, minimal saurus, only 1 of each big Dino) anyways, but regardless I think they will be better as a well rounded army.

The coalesced will spike vs certain matchups for sure. But I think will be left with holes to fill vs others, moreso than a well crafted starborne list.

Main reasons

1) you typically want a Slann/Kroak combo in Starborne, plus a Starpriest or a Starseer, so you get to throw out a lot more MWs than an average coalesced, which typically can’t afford 580 pts on the two.
2) teleporting salamanders. Almost no support hero is safe.
3) All good Seraphon lists rely on synergy, but the units you tend to bring in Starborne are a shade less reliant IMO. With Coalesced you often want lots of saurus and knights and they really need CPs and buffs to do work. FoS skinks fall in the same category I guess, but I feel with LoSaT and DT you can control your engagements better. With coalesced you will be forced into the meat grinder more often and will be burning CP to keep pushing toward objectives and your goals.

I have yet to play a single game with the book as most people, but that’s just my impression. Can’t wait to take it for a spin (at least should have a fully painted army by then!)
 
I have a feeling that coalesced a better vs lower tier armies, but Starborne have more potential and have a chance to beat top tiers. Free teleport for any unit is so powerful. And this is alongside placing half units in reserves or +3" movement. It is harder to get good results with starborne, but if you master them, they are better than coalesced. Just imagine amount of pressure that 40 buffed FoS skinks apply. If you charge them, you are 100% getting shot with 80 shots, that cause mortal wounds on 6 to-wound, and they have a 50% chance to retreat afterwards. Maybe shoot them? But they can have 2+ rerollable against shooting and 6+ FnP. Magic? Of course, if you beat Kroak with +2 to unbind (with Sage's Staff). And this are just 240 points. They may be not the strongest unit in the game, but if your opponent is reckless, you can punish them hard. And Coalesced are like "you either can beat me or cannot". Some armies will auto-lose against them and some can get an easy win.

And bravery is really a problem fore skinks. You either have spare cp for them or celestial harmony. But coalesced are already CP hungry. If you are unlucky with CP gain mechanics, you are almost certainly going to lose. So you are kind of forced to take CP-returning stuff. You want Kroak, Starseer, Starpriest, Master of Star Rituals (if skink-heavy) or Dominant Predator (Saurus-heavy). Which makes you very predictable in the end and places even bigger death mark upon your characters.

Coalesced are great in games, where you want just smash each other's face (more or less), but Starborne are better for mindgames.
 
Nart said:
I have a feeling that coalesced a better vs lower tier armies, but Starborne have more potential and have a chance to beat top tiers. Free teleport for any unit is so powerful. And this is alongside placing half units in reserves or +3" movement. It is harder to get good results with starborne, but if you master them, they are better than coalesced. Just imagine amount of pressure that 40 buffed FoS skinks apply. If you charge them, you are 100% getting shot with 80 shots, that cause mortal wounds on 6 to-wound, and they have a 50% chance to retreat afterwards. Maybe shoot them? But they can have 2+ rerollable against shooting and 6+ FnP. Magic? Of course, if you beat Kroak with +2 to unbind (with Sage's Staff). And this are just 240 points. They may be not the strongest unit in the game, but if your opponent is reckless, you can punish them hard. And Coalesced are like "you either can beat me or cannot". Some armies will auto-lose against them and some can get an easy win.

And bravery is really a problem fore skinks. You either have spare cp for them or celestial harmony. But coalesced are already CP hungry. If you are unlucky with CP gain mechanics, you are almost certainly going to lose. So you are kind of forced to take CP-returning stuff. You want Kroak, Starseer, Starpriest, Master of Star Rituals (if skink-heavy) or Dominant Predator (Saurus-heavy). Which makes you very predictable in the end and places even bigger death mark upon your characters.

Coalesced are great in games, where you want just smash each other's face (more or less), but Starborne are better for mindgames.
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Great analysis. That pretty much sums up my feelings on Starborne vs Coalesced.

It makes me sad that the Starborne Sunclaw battalion is so much better than the Coalesced. I would consider Koatl's Claw as the best Saurus Platform if not for that. An additional rend -1 is just better than +1 to hit at the moment. The Coalesced Shadowstrike is better than Starbornes, but I am not convinced our Skink units even need battalions unless you want the aretefact slot and extra CP. Our Hero tax is so heavy now that it is hard to build competitive list that be less than 6 drops.
 
LizardWizard said:
Great analysis. That pretty much sums up my feelings on Starborne vs Coalesced.

It makes me sad that the Starborne Sunclaw battalion is so much better than the Coalesced. I would consider Koatl's Claw as the best Saurus Platform if not for that. An additional rend -1 is just better than +1 to hit at the moment. The Coalesced Shadowstrike is better than Starbornes, but I am not convinced our Skink units even need battalions unless you want the aretefact slot and extra CP. Our Hero tax is so heavy now that it is hard to build competitive list that be less than 6 drops.
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Meh, I'd just stick them in a shadowstrike regardless, you're going to be bringing most of what's in it anyway if you have a skink-list. Might as well get that bonus.

I really wish we could buy artifacts without needing battalions though. We need to bring such an ungodly amount of heroes, and a great deal of them don't fit into any battalion (starseer, slann, warden, oracle, skink chiefs....). And on top of that our battalions have very little flexibility. And lastly most of our battalions are fairly terrible at msu which makes them even more expensive.

To be honest it feels like GW can't make up it's mind with how battalions should work. Certain factions get easy to fill multiple battalions, with loads of flexibility and with a decent-ish one for nearly every unit in the book whereas others struggle to fill a single battalion while still leaving room for support.
 
At least, our battalions are not terrible rule-wise. Maybe, we can expect some point drops in GHB FAQ.
 
Alladin the Paladin said:
I think the “on paper” benefits of coalesced make them look quite strong compared to starborne.

Add to this fact that we tend to look at starborne with a biased eye since we lost double LoSaT, we lost Summoning, we lost Wary a Fighter, and it’s easy to think “how am I going to win with these guys now.”

I felt this way initially, but after much reflection (and time to kill, much of it spent on this forum), I have been leaning more toward Starborne lists.
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I totally agree. At a first glance, it seems that starborne have a similar playstyle of the "old" seraphon, while losing a ton of abilities. In truth they are a really strong option.

LizardWizard said:
The only thing that would ever make me take Coalesced is Scaly Skin. And I find LoSaT to better than it. Koatl's Claw is decent, but FoS and DT are both better imo.
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Don't forget the additional jaws attack. Not for the dinosaurs (even if additional bite Attacks for carnosaurs is not a small buff), but for troops is massive.
a 10 knights unit increases by 20 its number of attacks. the combo with the serpent staff works wonders in Coalesced.
 
For casual games at your local store, I prefer coalesced. They’re more fun in my opinion, and you have less to think about, as all your abilities are buffs rather than new mechanics.

If I ever go to a big tournament, then I’ll be bringing starborne. Objectives win games, and the increased mobility LoSaT and shadowstrike, FoS, and DT provide cannot be understated. However, it is a lot more to keep track of and your units are less durable, meaning you will have to play better to get the full potential out of it.
 
Coalesced for beerhammer (throwing dice, having a laugh with your mates) while Starborne is the way to beat the current top meta picks. They just have much more tricks up their sleeves imo.

Our batallions feel so bad. Sure some of the effects are OK, but they are way too restrictive in what you have to bring. Why must you bring Terradons/Rippers in a Shadowstrike? Why must you bring Razordons/Salamanders in Thunderquake? Etc. I dont really care about the old tome and how things were back then - The game has changed a LOT and some armies got incredible batallions that arent anywhere as restrictive as they are for us. At least from a largely Skink-army perspective. Saurus looks great though.
 
Welcome! Some good points you raise there.
 
Grotpunter said:
Coalesced for beerhammer (throwing dice, having a laugh with your mates) while Starborne is the way to beat the current top meta picks. They just have much more tricks up their sleeves imo.
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I think, you can win top armies with coalesced, but you have to be better than your opponents. Also, they are very good against B tier armies. So they may be decent at local tournaments which are not oversaturated with top tier armies.
 
Nart said:
I think, you can win top armies with coalesced, but you have to be better than your opponents. Also, they are very good against B tier armies. So they may be decent at local tournaments which are not oversaturated with top tier armies.
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My issue is that they have no real tricks to beat any of the current strong melee armies. They have no ways of affecting the "activation wars", no speed to outmaneuver armies like Fyreslayers etc. All they do have going for them is decent warscroll stats when buffed to the max. This works for Big Waagh because of their speed - Big threats that can move 20-30" a turn with fly etc., so they can pick their fights as they please. I dont think Saurus are tough enough to take a beating from almost any half decent melee army. It doesnt have to be super optimized meta lists, but many armies got a way to affect the flow of combat in the current version of AoS.

But yeah, as I also said in the other post, Coalesced will be fine in "casual" games.
 
I think we are dealing with these odd learning curves as to *why* each group is easier to play

Coalesced are easier to pick up and play from the point of view of not needing as much strategy (run your buffed warrior/knight blobs into enemies), but their curve skyrockets at the higher levels of play because they don’t have as many tools as top tier armies and you really have to outthink and our plan your opponents.

Starborne are not quite as easy to pick up and play (for old players they are, but talking about someone unfamiliar with Lizards), but have easier access to scary power moves that can take your opponent by surprise (if only because of LoSaT buffed salamanders and the typically higher MW-dealing options that now exist). Their curve also skyrockets, but the stuff that made us good before (teleport, summoning) is what keeps starborne more competitive still, and is probably easier to grasp as to why they would be powerful.

Edit: I just want to play a damn game with the new book! :argh:
 
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