AoS Theory crafting competitive Thunderlizard

[Jason839]

I haven't really liked Thunderlizard as a competitive army. The dinos are really cool but It felt like it gave up too much compared to Starborne. This seems even more true in 3.0 after nerfs and point hikes, but since everyone else is loving it, I figured I would try to make a version that I would feel happy about. I came up with this. It pretty much could be any of the 4 subfactions, but is using TL for damage reduction, better mounts and double tapping bastiladon. It feels like it has decent threat saturation and damage output between kroak, buffed knights, buffed skinks, bastiladon, and a carno wizard thrown in for good measure. It covers a lot of objectives and should give me a good chance to score every turn. Im really tempted to throw it into DT for summoning and 10 bravery, but damage reduction seems pretty good at the moment. Im looking forward to giving it a go and seeing how it does.

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Thunder Lizard
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (215) in Battle Regiment
- General
- War Spear
- Command Trait: Prime Warbeast
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Skink Priest (80) in Battle Regiment
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Heal
Skink Starpriest (130) in Command Entourage
- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Lord Kroak (430) in Command Entourage
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Skink Starseer (145) in Command Entourage
- Spell: Tide of Serpents

Battleline
10 x Saurus Knights (220) in Battle Regiment
- Lances
- Reinforced x 1
30 x Skinks (225) in Battle Regiment
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
- Reinforced x 2
10 x Skinks (75) in Battle Regiment
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (75) in Battle Regiment
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
5 x Saurus Guard (115) in Battle Regiment

Behemoths
Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235) in Battle Regiment

Endless Spells & Invocations
Chronomantic Cogs (45)

Core Battalions
Battle Regiment
Command Entourage - Magnificent

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 133

What does everyone think?

 

[Tyranitar]

This is an interesting list, unlike anything I've tried so far. There's a couple things I would consider, not sure what's best without trying it out tho.

-put the amulet of destiny on the scarnosaur. In TL with the extra wounds and damage reduction he'll be very durable this way and keeping your general around for the CP is nice obviously. I just don't think the Flaming Weapon is worth it, it won't up the damage output a ton and you have to cast it which isn't always reliable.
-or, cut a unit of skinks and upgrade the scarnosaur to an EotG, with Arcane Tome it makes a nice vessel for Kroak and hits harder than the scarnosaur in melee.
-or cut both units of skinks in favor of 5 chamos, they add some nice options for battle tactics especially in TL since we lack the teleporting/summoning there
-break up the knights into 2x5. I'd think the starpriest buff will be on the skink blob and either way it's challenging to get enough knights into melee to make use of the extra models. Units of 5 generally work just fine.

Just some thoughts, good luck with the list. It looks fun

 

[Tav]

Not a fan of a 10 of knights, 2 5s is far better to use as screens or a strike force under buffs but everything else is great.

Im leaning towards thunder lizard being the best subfaction this edition, starborne needs to start proving to me it can stomp opponents and score the points to change my mind

 

[Jason839]

Not a fan of a 10 of knights, 2 5s is far better to use as screens or a strike force under buffs but everything else is great.

Im leaning towards thunder lizard being the best subfaction this edition, starborne needs to start proving to me it can stomp opponents and score the points to change my mind

If I planned on using the knights as screens then I would definitely break them down into 5s. But in this list the knights are purely there as a hammer to get buffed charge in and wipe out a horde or a gargant or archaon or belakor. Its been my experience that the meta has not become the msu meta people predicted but is all about hero hammer and hordes. You need to be able to wipe out a lot of wounds very quickly to score and I dont think min knights is in a good spot to do that. I really want the weight of dice a buffed unit of 10 brings.

 

[Kilvakar]

Its been my experience that the meta has not become the msu meta people predicted but is all about hero hammer and hordes.

Someone just posted a winrate sheet in another thread about this. Archaon and Be'Lakor are the top of the meta right now, with Morathi and Giants right behind. The giant, ultra-killy models can now be buffed to be nearly unkillable themselves. It looks like if we want to remain competitive we'll have to figure out ways to take out Archaon in particular.

 

[Tav]

If I planned on using the knights as screens then I would definitely break them down into 5s. But in this list the knights are purely there as a hammer to get buffed charge in and wipe out a horde or a gargant or archaon or belakor. Its been my experience that the meta has not become the msu meta people predicted but is all about hero hammer and hordes. You need to be able to wipe out a lot of wounds very quickly to score and I dont think min knights is in a good spot to do that. I really want the weight of dice a buffed unit of 10 brings.

Id rather have 2 waves of 5 personally, especially since a lot of the time possibly only 7 will get into the target.

 

[Vallek]

Someone just posted a winrate sheet in another thread about this. Archaon and Be'Lakor are the top of the meta right now, with Morathi and Giants right behind. The giant, ultra-killy models can now be buffed to be nearly unkillable themselves. It looks like if we want to remain competitive we'll have to figure out ways to take out Archaon in particular.

I've been thinking about this a lot and been considering if using our most basic of combos (Skinks + Skink Priest) might be a viable answer.

with universal enhancements you can pick up the Curse prayer for the Priest and if you land it on a big meaty murder machine you then follow up with 30 skinks all shooting twice. Natural 6's turn into mortal wounds + normal to-wound rolls. 60 shots = 10 average 6's. When big and meaty goes to charge, assuming it survived, the priest issues the command to unleash hell and the Curse prayer is still in effect. Again, 60 shots and 6's = mortal wounds.

It isn't very elegant but at the very least it should earn it's points back in sheer damage potential.

 

[Tav]

I've been thinking about this a lot and been considering if using our most basic of combos (Skinks + Skink Priest) might be a viable answer.

with universal enhancements you can pick up the Curse prayer for the Priest and if you land it on a big meaty murder machine you then follow up with 30 skinks all shooting twice. Natural 6's turn into mortal wounds + normal to-wound rolls. 60 shots = 10 average 6's. When big and meaty goes to charge, assuming it survived, the priest issues the command to unleash hell and the Curse prayer is still in effect. Again, 60 shots and 6's = mortal wounds.

It isn't very elegant but at the very least it should earn it's points back in sheer damage potential.

Issue is having to get a 4 wound 5+ save hero within 9 of the target and then rolling to get curse off, i doubt it would get any result consistently against skilled opponents

 

[Kilvakar]

I think you'd need the Starpriest for this combo as well. MWs on 6s to hit and wound, and at least you'd have some mortals even if the prayer didn't go off.

 

[Jason839]

Issue is having to get a 4 wound 5+ save hero within 9 of the target and then rolling to get curse off, i doubt it would get any result consistently against skilled opponents

most people tend to ignore buff heroes when 30 skinks or 6 salamanders are a bigger threat, so you may get 1-2 turns out of the little guy before he gets popped

 

[Tav]

most people tend to ignore buff heroes when 30 skinks or 6 salamanders are a bigger threat, so you may get 1-2 turns out of the little guy before he gets popped

Im more worried about the people that know that they should target those heroes and will.

30 skinks aren't a threat, the heroes doing curse and serpent venom are and an experienced opponent should know that

 

[Tilorn91]

To bring back the talk of the posted list, I'm interested in it. I have a match coming up against a Tzeentch player, that doesn't have Archaon, and thinks I will most likely do Coalesced of some sorts as I'm known in my gaming club as the Koatl's Claw guy from 2.0, and well into 3.0.

Now, I am desperate for options and ideas, as I am also fairly certain he will do Kairos, 2x20 pinks, and some random support heroes. There is one particular hero that can choose to cast a spell with 1d6 that is not unbindable, that allows rerolls of spells in a bubble. With that, plus Kairos, Kroak has terrible unbinding chances (and I run AB+Kroak+Constalation on him constantly, so +4/+3 cast and unbind). Even casting will be really hard vs Kairos.

Now, this list looks like an answer I am looking for. 10 Knights might be ok, for that 7 knight alpha strike damage, but do I have an answer for a combined 200wounds+whatever he returns to the field with rally, spells, or bravery 1 if there is a surviving pink horror model?

We don't know what scenario we will play on yet, but it is safe to assume that two objectives will be nigh unconquerable with two units of pinks, my only choice is whatever else remains on the field. Anyone willing to part some advice vs Tzeentch using a list like this? I usually do the normal KC list with a Scarvet, Kroak+AB, Starpriest, Priest, and whatever 6th hero for 2x Warlord, 3x5 knights, some skink screens and a few Salamanders. Needing something different to have a chance at winning since I lost handily with a list like that already to the same player, running Tzaangor Enlighteneds, Flamers and only one unit of 20 pinks. Versus a better list, something he will surely do since we are deeper into the league thing we have going on in the gaming club, I need something a lot better.

 

[Tav]

To bring back the talk of the posted list, I'm interested in it. I have a match coming up against a Tzeentch player, that doesn't have Archaon, and thinks I will most likely do Coalesced of some sorts as I'm known in my gaming club as the Koatl's Claw guy from 2.0, and well into 3.0.

Now, I am desperate for options and ideas, as I am also fairly certain he will do Kairos, 2x20 pinks, and some random support heroes. There is one particular hero that can choose to cast a spell with 1d6 that is not unbindable, that allows rerolls of spells in a bubble. With that, plus Kairos, Kroak has terrible unbinding chances (and I run AB+Kroak+Constalation on him constantly, so +4/+3 cast and unbind). Even casting will be really hard vs Kairos.

Now, this list looks like an answer I am looking for. 10 Knights might be ok, for that 7 knight alpha strike damage, but do I have an answer for a combined 200wounds+whatever he returns to the field with rally, spells, or bravery 1 if there is a surviving pink horror model?

We don't know what scenario we will play on yet, but it is safe to assume that two objectives will be nigh unconquerable with two units of pinks, my only choice is whatever else remains on the field. Anyone willing to part some advice vs Tzeentch using a list like this? I usually do the normal KC list with a Scarvet, Kroak+AB, Starpriest, Priest, and whatever 6th hero for 2x Warlord, 3x5 knights, some skink screens and a few Salamanders. Needing something different to have a chance at winning since I lost handily with a list like that already to the same player, running Tzaangor Enlighteneds, Flamers and only one unit of 20 pinks. Versus a better list, something he will surely do since we are deeper into the league thing we have going on in the gaming club, I need something a lot better.

A thunder lizard bastildon with some skink heroes to support it will do serious work vs tzeentch, so any other competent additions should treat you well.

between a bastiladon firing a volley at 2 different units to force a battleshock and a buffed carno/knights can clean up pinks pretty handily

 

[Tilorn91]

A thunder lizard bastildon with some skink heroes to support it will do serious work vs tzeentch, so any other competent additions should treat you well.

between a bastiladon firing a volley at 2 different units to force a battleshock and a buffed carno/knights can clean up pinks pretty handily

By my current math, double shooting Basti and a Chief buffed with Priest CA and his own CA, and a Prime Warbeast triggering his Flamethrowers twice, and a prayer on 3+ for his run shoot charge to pass, and a Cloak of Feathers, they do a combined total of around 60 damage after combat phase. 3+ prayer is a random factor, and Hand of Glory would increase that damage on something of the two, slightly, but a +1 to cast Skink hero versus a Kairos, it will not happen.

So, my understanding is that I will need 2 turns to kill one unit of 20 pinks, 4 turns to kill two units of 20 pinks. The problem is, my entire army is focusing on one unit at a time, while the Skink Chief will die on the first turn of my opponent after he is engaged with the Pinks. Far from a good spot to be in. Where the Basti could've been shooting support heroes, and the Steg Chief could've maybe charged something on the side, or Kairos himself if he is out of position, I do meaningless damage to a unit of pinks.

To me, it seems best to ignore them, concede two objectives, and focus on whatever else there is on the map, depending on what scenario is being played for the next round in the torunament. Am I missing something crucial in my judgement here? I feel as if I can't make meaningful damage to a unit, without pieces of my combo dying too fast. The Basti is safe 24" behind, so is the Starpriest, Priest, Starseer, etc, unless they eat a 6MW bolt from Kairos, that is. Chief will die too fast, and at that point it is useless to even proceed trying to finish the first unit of pinks, let alone the 2nd. Double flamethrowers sound sexy, and they will do a ton of damage, but that almost certainly means he is in the tarpit, ready to die.

 

[Tav]

By my current math, double shooting Basti and a Chief buffed with Priest CA and his own CA, and a Prime Warbeast triggering his Flamethrowers twice, and a prayer on 3+ for his run shoot charge to pass, and a Cloak of Feathers, they do a combined total of around 60 damage after combat phase. 3+ prayer is a random factor, and Hand of Glory would increase that damage on something of the two, slightly, but a +1 to cast Skink hero versus a Kairos, it will not happen.

So, my understanding is that I will need 2 turns to kill one unit of 20 pinks, 4 turns to kill two units of 20 pinks. The problem is, my entire army is focusing on one unit at a time, while the Skink Chief will die on the first turn of my opponent after he is engaged with the Pinks. Far from a good spot to be in. Where the Basti could've been shooting support heroes, and the Steg Chief could've maybe charged something on the side, or Kairos himself if he is out of position, I do meaningless damage to a unit of pinks.

To me, it seems best to ignore them, concede two objectives, and focus on whatever else there is on the map, depending on what scenario is being played for the next round in the torunament. Am I missing something crucial in my judgement here? I feel as if I can't make meaningful damage to a unit, without pieces of my combo dying too fast. The Basti is safe 24" behind, so is the Starpriest, Priest, Starseer, etc, unless they eat a 6MW bolt from Kairos, that is. Chief will die too fast, and at that point it is useless to even proceed trying to finish the first unit of pinks, let alone the 2nd. Double flamethrowers sound sexy, and they will do a ton of damage, but that almost certainly means he is in the tarpit, ready to die.

What you want to do is fully buff a basti which will do about 14 per volley into pinks, if you fire 1 into each and chip at them/ hit with carno and knights then you will start to add a lot more damage via battleshock.

of course taking out heroes is a priority but taking the fight to the pinks can be done, secure your 2 objectives and start going to town

 

[Tilorn91]

What you want to do is fully buff a basti which will do about 14 per volley into pinks, if you fire 1 into each and chip at them/ hit with carno and knights then you will start to add a lot more damage via battleshock.

of course taking out heroes is a priority but taking the fight to the pinks can be done, secure your 2 objectives and start going to town

Absolutely great idea, didn't occur to me to split damage to cause more fleeing models, seemed counter intuitive to me. On top of fleeing models not splitting into lower horror tiers, since they didn't die due to the errata. Though, Basti must do 20+ damage, otherwise he can spend a fate dice, or Kairos dice cheating, to roll a 1 on Battleshock and return pinks. And even if Basti kills enough, that unit will have nothing in close combat, and will roll a huge number of dice for Rally in the Hero Phase, around... 30, on average that is 5 pinks back, ouch. The other unit will have the Chief in close combat, so no rally.

EDIT: That unit that Basti shot into, let's say 20 damage in shooting, since that is the bare minimum since otherwise he will return pinks with bravery 1 due to bannerdude. So, 20 damage, bravery roll of 1 for instance, 11 flee, which translates into 22 wounds of damage since they don't split furhter. 42 total damage, of which he will return 5 pinks on average for 25 wounds healed. 42-25, 17 effective damage. A bit less than what Basti normal shooting would do, to force the opponent to spend a CP on rally.

Though there is opportunity cost, that Basti could've been killing support heroes, or seriously damaging Kairos, while the Chief is in melee with the other unit of Horror's, in a very real situation of dying within that turn. Is this the way to go?

 

[Tav]

Absolutely great idea, didn't occur to me to split damage to cause more fleeing models, seemed counter intuitive to me. On top of fleeing models not splitting into lower horror tiers, since they didn't die due to the errata. Though, Basti must do 20+ damage, otherwise he can spend a fate dice, or Kairos dice cheating, to roll a 1 on Battleshock and return pinks. And even if Basti kills enough, that unit will have nothing in close combat, and will roll a huge number of dice for Rally in the Hero Phase, around... 30, on average that is 5 pinks back, ouch. The other unit will have the Chief in close combat, so no rally.

That very much depends on how pinks are being ruled as its currently unclear and often done differently with different TOs

 

[Tilorn91]

That very much depends on how pinks are being ruled as its currently unclear and often done differently with different TOs

What is there to be ambiguous about the rules? Fleeing horror's don't split, so that is good, but Rally is very clear in the wording, and I've combed through the Errata twice now in search for something to help, there is nothing sadly. It will be tedious to keep track of slain model numbers versus fleeing models, but it will be a huge dice pool to roll for Rally each turn unless I suicide something into the tarpit. Huge healing in terms of effective wounds restored, each pink being 5 wounds.

 

[Tav]

What is there to be ambiguous about the rules? Fleeing horror's don't split, so that is good, but Rally is very clear in the wording, and I've combed through the Errata twice now in search for something to help, there is nothing sadly. It will be tedious to keep track of slain model numbers versus fleeing models, but it will be a huge dice pool to roll for Rally each turn unless I suicide something into the tarpit. Huge healing in terms of effective wounds restored, each pink being 5 wounds.

The issue is with the rule that a unit cannot go over its maximum size, maximum size not having been properly defined thus far.

so if 10 pinks split into 20 blues, can you then rally to try and get pinks back? Maybe not as the “max size” could maybe be 10 as the split rule specifically allows the unit to go over max size

 

[Tilorn91]

The issue is with the rule that a unit cannot go over its maximum size, maximum size not having been properly defined thus far.

so if 10 pinks split into 20 blues, can you then rally to try and get pinks back? Maybe not as the “max size” could maybe be 10 as the split rule specifically allows the unit to go over max size

The way I see it... The Errata has this bit about Not being able to return models that are not in the original unit. My understanding is that it only forbids you from returning anything other than Pink Horrors, but lets say I killed 30 Blue ones? My understanding is that the guy would roll 50 dice for Rally, and if he gets 30 6's (Unlikely, but to make a point) he can only return 20 pinks, not 20 pinks and 10 blues. Though, can he return 30 Pinks? Probably not, due to Errata wording.

On the other hand, I got a friend that claims that since you cannot return the slain blue models, or even brimstone ones, they don't qualify for the Rally dice pool to even roll. I don't agree with that, since Rally doesn't say that. Only the Errata forbids returning non legal models, but nothing prevents them from counting for Rally.

Who is in the right?