Tutorial The Old World Lizardmen Army PDF is out and free

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

This I actually like, as new models do not appeal to me and they are insanely expensive. And I really like cold ones.

I have my own cons:
- no Kroak, no Tehenhauin, no Oxyotl

(no Mazdamundi as well, I do not list this as a negative, as he was really playable just for fun).

This all ffects "fun play next to a been" which is basically "my way". Lizies went one step closer to "boring army".

Well no one has characters outside the arcane journals, so this is to be expected.

Kroq-Gar is the biggest dissapoint in that regard to me, as his model is made from the same kit as the base carno.

Although it would have been really neat for there to be a relic slann option to cover Kroak.

But I do anticipate that all the legacy factions will return to the main game in the fullness of time. But that is likely 4 years down the road.

in the meantime, maybe some 3rd party player council can/will come up with some acceptable character rules for legacy Factions.

Like the idea Daemons are missing all their characters is kinda absurd as well. They are immortal beings and all have existing models.

 

[Blastoize]

Thinking about Stegadon limit - where do we read that when you take the Steg as a mount, is does not count towrds the 1-per-1000 limit? It is under the same item in the book (in the rare section), it only ads, that you can field it as a mount and it counts towards characters.
Does it really mean we can take 1 in rare and other in characters, or is it only wishful thinking? It leaves me confused.
It kinda grind my gears (the fact we are so limited and you need 2 EotG to get the buff and no ward save..)

 

[discomute]

Does it really mean we can take 1 in rare and other in characters, or is it only wishful thinking

Not wishful thinking, it's how I read it. Now it isn't as clear as I'd like but it says the 0-1 limit is in "Rare". At the bottom of page 13 it says if it's a mount it counts in your character points allotment. If the stegadon mount is part of your character points, why would the rare restrictions apply?

 

[Rimbo]

The thing I dislike the most is the fact that Steg is Ws2 when getting hit because of Skinks. Also it is not clear but the enemy attacking Bastiladon and Troglodon also compares to Ws of Skinks (unless I am mistaken, happy to be proven wrong). Split profiles are generally unfavourable for us because of Skinks weapon skill.

 

[discomute]

The thing I dislike the most is the fact that Steg is Ws2 when getting hit because of Skinks. Also it is not clear but the enemy attacking Bastiladon and Troglodon also compares to Ws of Skinks (unless I am mistaken, happy to be proven wrong). Split profiles are generally unfavourable for us because of Skinks weapon skill.

Wow. This is an excellent take and one I had glossed over. Yes my first impression of the Troglodon was that it was amazing - then I backed to 'fine enough, but the worst of 4 options'. Now I might even downgrade again. Compared to Trogs, Stegadons have an extra toughness and 4+ AV instead of 5+. Bastiladons do have -W but are 3+ instead of 5+.

Of course point values for these are relevant, as is all the other rules. I think Carnos are #1 and I am starting to think that Stegadons are #2. Really hard for me to get a feel for how Troglodons are actually going to play.

 

[Ersh]

I really disagree with your assertion that LM are not a shooty army. Skinks are the most efficient skirmishers in the game at 7 points per model, now that they are 5 they are crazy good. Combined with spells, Fiery Convocation is very good, Giant Bows, Salamanders, Bastiladon lightbeam makes us a very good shooting army. Cannons aint that great now.

The giant bow is our _only_ long rage artillery, but can't be taken outside the stegadon. And I do not remember using stegadons at all in competitive tournament lists (ETC for example). In ETC times elf/de players used 3-4 bolt throwers all the time. We just can't afford things like that.
Skink skirmishers are our everything, but simply because other options are just worse.

Don't get me wrong - lizzies can shoot. But it's not our dominating phase of a game. We can't shoot like any elf armie or like dorf/elves war machines.
Our dominant phase is magic, but it's just not very reliable due to game design.

 

[Rimbo]

I wonder what you think about arcane vassal. Can Slann cast range "self" spells through a skink priest so that skink and his unit benefits from them?

The range self is described that it benefits the caster Wizard, but in this case is it the skink priest?

 

[Acehilator]

The thing I dislike the most is the fact that Steg is Ws2 when getting hit because of Skinks. Also it is not clear but the enemy attacking Bastiladon and Troglodon also compares to Ws of Skinks (unless I am mistaken, happy to be proven wrong). Split profiles are generally unfavourable for us because of Skinks weapon skill.

Be happy that you are indeed wrong

The reason the opponent attacks vs WS2 on the Stegadon is because of the Howdah rule, which is only for Behemoths. Trogs and Bastis are Monstrous Creatures, so they don't have it.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Do you think the ancient is worth the upgrade? I'm sort of thinking not...

Tricky, on one hand you get WS4 and Strength 6, on the other you lose an attack and a point of Initiative. Both variants can have the Giant Bow or Giant Blowpipes, so it may be just a case of experimenting with both and see which you have most luck with.

This I actually like, as new models do not appeal to me and they are insanely expensive. And I really like cold ones.

I don't like the new cold ones either as they look like small carnosaurs instead of raptors. I might consider one for a unit if it was an old blood or scar vet.

I also am not fond of the new Aggrodons, though I don't like them because they look so much more like generic Velociraptors taken straight from Jurassic World (also the reason why I'm not fond of the Dark Elf ones in the way pretty much everyone else is), compared to our old Cold Ones which looked pretty unique and fantastical as far as dinosaur-like reptiles go.

 

[Rimbo]

Be happy that you are indeed wrong

The reason the opponent attacks vs WS2 on the Stegadon is because of the Howdah rule, which is only for Behemoths. Trogs and Bastis are Monstrous Creatures, so they don't have it.

Hmmm OK, but is there any rule that says that enemy attacks against max Ws of a single model? One can argue that we still take riders ws since that's what happens with every other split profile

 

[Acehilator]

Hmmm OK, but is there any rule that says that enemy attacks against max Ws of a single model? One can argue that we still take riders ws since that's what happens with every other split profile

Split Profile is only a feature of Cavalry, Chariots and Behemoths with the Howdah USR.

 

[Acehilator]

So... warmachine hunting.

- Skink Skirmishers with Blowpipes, Scout upgrade and Patrol Leader (unit of 10)
- Chameleon Skinks with Patrol Leader (unit of 10)
- Skink Chieftain on Terradon (with whatever upgrades to make him more killy)
- Scar-Vet on Cold One (with Horned One upgrade + whatever)

Any thoughts on that? Somehow I don't like any of these options.

Are Scouts even viable for warmachine hunting, or are you already dependend on your opponent making a mistake during deployment?

Same with the Scar-Vet, a unit without fly won't work, right?

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

So... warmachine hunting.

- Skink Skirmishers with Blowpipes, Scout upgrade and Patrol Leader (unit of 10)
- Chameleon Skinks with Patrol Leader (unit of 10)
- Skink Chieftain on Terradon (with whatever upgrades to make him more killy)
- Scar-Vet on Cold One (with Horned One upgrade + whatever)

Any thoughts on that? Somehow I don't like any of these options.

Are Scouts even viable for warmachine hunting, or are you already dependend on your opponent making a mistake during deployment?

Same with the Scar-Vet, a unit without fly won't work, right?

Certainly I'd go with something flying, either the Chief on Terradon or a small unit of Terradon Riders. Perhaps one of each to cover a flank.

One of our biggest issues as an army (and has been since previous Editions) is that we can't Ambush. Ambushers are what you need to deal with War Machines as they can pop up on your opponent's board edge or their side of either of the flank edges to close in on War Machine targets.

Small foot Skirmisher units and line characters could potentially sneak around other units, but it's so easy for your opponent to just block them or charge them with a unit. A Scar-Vet Oldblood Cowboy has the best chance of fighting his way past and has the smallest footprint, but it'll still take him a while to reach his target.

Flying units, on the other hand can easily zoom over the enemy and reach their target quickly, particularly Terradons who are one of the few flying units to retain a Fly move of 10" in TOW. Plus, they get all the benefits of being Skirmishers anyway.

Additionally, remember we have another counter for artillery (and other missile troops) in our arsenal in the form of the Monsoon spell from the Lore of Lustria, which we can always pick with our casters. Forcing War Machines to not shoot on the roll of a 1 can certainly reduce their effectiveness sufficiently long enough for Terradons to reach and deal with them.

 

[Acehilator]

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl I was thinking about the same. Problem I see with the Scar-Vet/Skink Chief is that even with the Terradon, the Chief will only start killing Warmachines from T3 onwards, right? T1 stay with your main army to use character protection, T2 march 20" to get behind the enemy army (hopefully), T3 start profiting (maybe). If you go first, the whole thing might even delayed one additional turn. Is it even worth it at that point?

lol

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl I was thinking about the same. Problem I see with the Scar-Vet/Skink Chief is that even with the Terradon, the Chief will only start killing Warmachines from T3 onwards, right?
lol

Indeed that is true - you can use Drop Rocks to deal with a T4 artillery crew, but a Skink Chief on Terradon would only be able to drop D3 rock hits on his own, whereas you'd be able to deal 3 times that with a unit of 3 standard Terradons.

 

[discomute]

Ripperdactyl Riders: Our second and newer flying cavalry unit is again largely the same, Ripperdactyls can be solid even against armoured units thanks to Cleaving Blow, particularly on the charge and against an enemy with a Blot Toad marker, though the introduction of the Impetuous special rule is a particular issue and makes it easy for them to be baited - normally I'd suggest putting a screen of Skirmishers, in this case Terradon Riders, in front of a Ripperdactyl unit to block them from charging, but Ripperdactyls also are Skirmishers, and thus have 360 degree visibility and can charge an enemy in any direction, meaning a canny opponent can place a chaff unit facing their flank or rear for them to waste their time on. Of course, being Skirmishers, you could form the Terradon Riders in a circle around the Ripperdactyls, but the whole collection of two units would fast become rather expensive to achieve this viably. However, the one mercy is that, being Flyers, Ripperdactyls benefit from quite a long maximum charge range, meaning more often than not there should be a multitude of enemy units to choose from and the player can choose from the easiest target to throw the Rippers into.

Interesting, you make them sound like they're viable. Should I dare to dream?

A long charge range is a benefit and hinderince - longer area you might be impetuous.

Carnosaur: For some reason the Carnosaur is treated as a Cavalry unit in the roster rather than a Monster, though it has Behemoth as its troop type (which makes me wonder if there's a loophole to be exploited where Apotheosis is concerned after all). Otherwise though, the Carnosaur has seen a pretty decent glow-up. Only being able to use Multiple Wounds (D3) on Monsters and a fixed value of 2 for its Stomp attacks are little downers, but it now automatically has Swiftstride and instead of its Toughness of 5 and 5 Wounds, it now adds +1 to its rider's Toughness and +4 to his Wounds, meaning it effectively now has Toughness 6 and 7 Wounds with an Oldblood riding it (which should be 9 times out of 10). This combined with the reduced lethality of artillery, the improved rules for Terror and a 50-point price discount means its usefulness has shot up and it is easily the best Monster we have now. As the icing on the cake, its Blood Frenzy rule has now become the most efficient way to gain the benefits of Frenzy, as it means the player can choose the Carnosaur's target and avoid baiting units before zeroing in and letting it do its thing.

I have been thinking about apotheosis. I don't like it applies. Yeah it's in the cavalry section but still technically a behemoth.

Carnosaurs seem so good I'm wondering if competitive lists might try to field two of them...

 

[discomute]

So... warmachine hunting.

- Skink Skirmishers with Blowpipes, Scout upgrade and Patrol Leader (unit of 10)
- Chameleon Skinks with Patrol Leader (unit of 10)
- Skink Chieftain on Terradon (with whatever upgrades to make him more killy)
- Scar-Vet on Cold One (with Horned One upgrade + whatever)

Any thoughts on that? Somehow I don't like any of these options.

Are Scouts even viable for warmachine hunting, or are you already dependend on your opponent making a mistake during deployment?

Same with the Scar-Vet, a unit without fly won't work, right?

Thinking outside the box - Troglodon? Movement 7 isn't ideal but could that work?

At 200 points it's the price of 5 ripperdons. The priest can shoot magic missiles on the way in (or monsoon?) and there is a breath weapon, not to mention terror.

It's no carnosaur in combat but will smash any war machine. Best of all if it doesn't work out and you end up charging into a units flank instead... Happy days

Edit - for slightly less price you can take either an old blood on a horned one with shield and cav spear, or, two skink chiefs on terradons with shields and cav spears. Man I wish the trogs had swiftstride it would totally reinvent them. Desperate to find a place for my favourite model...

 

[Rimbo]

Anyone else bothered by the fact that Slann cannot join any unit in the Lizardmen army? Range "Self" spells that affect units are thus much less relevant for us. Also assailment spells aren't that good because we don't want to fight with him anyway.

 

[Rimbo]

Actually, I think he can join Terradons and Rippers which is weird.

 

[Ayei]

Just modified the pdf with rules used by Lizardmen:
- Common special rules
- Weapons rules
- The Lores of Magic
- Common magic items

Link to pdf

Tell me if something is wrong/missing