AoS The new Battletome: A Discussion

[Blitzkriyg]

RAW: ...before attempting to cast the first spell ... carry out cellestial conjuration ... if so, D3 CCP and reduce spells by 1

Which in my opinion means: As long as neither of your spellcasters has started to cast a spell they can keep on trading spells for CCP

so, slann can trade his 3 spells for 3D3 CCP, kroak can trade his spells for 4D3 CCP, etc.

So in a game with slann, kroak, astrolith and oracle i could end up with :

I really don't think that is the intention, but your reading of the rules is absolutely correct and if it turns out to be the intention, then it changes a whole lot.

 

[Aktanolt]

it's only the first spell for slanns, not all, so max d3 bonus for each slanns

 

[Koen Detiege]

Where does it say that is't only the first...

Was just reading killer angels overview ( http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/battletome-2-0-seraphon-overview.24329/ ) and he seems to interpret it the same way as me

 

[Blitzkriyg]

it's only the first spell for slanns, not all, so max d3 bonus for each slanns

He's saying the way it's written, it doesn't say the first spell you cast can be swapped, it says before you cast your first spell and so you can give up multiple casts before you cast your first spell

 

[Nart]

I dont see how you can compare the old book to the new one at all.

Why shouldn't I compare things, that stayed generally the same? What changed exactly for Arcane Might? It was always an okayish trait, outclassed by the better one. We didn't get amazing spells, which are hard to cast, but we desperately want to. On the contrary, we received more casting bonuses, which makes rerolling redundant.

Aetherquartz will likely be the most used for Saurus or Ripper spam builds.

Almost every single build wants to maximize CP, because our best abilities come from command abilities. Dracothion's Tail = reroll charges . Fangs of sotek - parting shot. Koatl's Claw - all of the saurus buffs. Thunder Lizard - double shooting, reroll 1's to-hit, +1 to-hit, etc. etc. You will also often want to auto-pass battleshock for coalesced, run 6 after priest's prayer, reroll 1's in melee. We want them all and we want them a lot. Every single one counts. That's why I still see great rememberer superior to arcane might.

 

[Killer Angel]

Almost every single build wants to maximize CP, because our best abilities come from command abilities. Dracothion's Tail = reroll charges . Fangs of sotek - parting shot. Koatl's Claw - all of the saurus buffs. Thunder Lizard - double shooting, reroll 1's to-hit, +1 to-hit, etc. etc. You will also often want to auto-pass battleshock for coalesced, run 6 after priest's prayer, reroll 1's in melee. We want them all and we want them a lot. Every single one counts. That's why I still see great rememberer superior to arcane might.

these are not bad points, but it will depend on the list
- a heavy magic list with Kroak and a Slann will roll 5 dices to gain additional command points; another dice won't make that difference, while you certainly want all the spell of your Slann to be successful.
- A list with a Slann alone and many units to buff, will certainly enjoy the additional chance

 

[Nart]

I'm afraid, testers on Bad Dice podcast also mentioned that it is d3 CCP per single slann, which hints that's not the intention.

 

[Grotpunter]

Why shouldn't I compare things, that stayed generally the same?

How can you argue that things stayed the same?
1) Our playstyle is different - Actual casting now.
2) The double teleport trait is gone. If it was still in the new book, it’d likely be picked every time.
3) Bound Endless spells are very good.
4) Slann got Comet’s Call which is very good against many armies to pick off support heroes.

To claim there is no difference.. I dont know man.

 

[Nart]

1) Our playstyle is different - Actual casting now.

Masters of Order+Sage's Staff+Astrolith.

2) The double teleport trait is gone. If it was still in the new book, it’d likely be picked every time.

Masters of Order+Sage's Staff+Astrolith.

3) Bound Endless spells are very good.

Masters of Order+Sage's Staff+Astrolith.

4) Slann got Comet’s Call which is very good against many armies to pick off support heroes.

Masters of Order+Sage's Staff+Astrolith.

All of this problems resolved with the same combination, that doesn't force you to use warlord trait. If you think, that astrolith is redundant, just leave first too, and you are still casting even hardest spells on 6+ or better. Yes, you can take arcane might to be sure, that you don't fail, but most of times it is an overkill.

 

[Putzfrau]

Are saurus kind of crazy good or is it just me?

180 points gets you 20, 4+ wounds.
In sunclaw its 80 rend 1 attacks.
3d6 rerolling charges means charges are fairly reliable.
Even with only oldblood and sunblood buffs the efficiency seems pretty insane.

They are kind of slow, but that seems easily remedied through sheer board control or tons of other units in the book.

 

[Jason839]

Masters of Order+Sage's Staff+Astrolith.



Masters of Order+Sage's Staff+Astrolith.



Masters of Order+Sage's Staff+Astrolith.



Masters of Order+Sage's Staff+Astrolith.

All of this problems resolved with the same combination, that doesn't force you to use warlord trait. If you think, that astrolith is redundant, just leave first too, and you are still casting even hardest spells on 6+ or better. Yes, you can take arcane might to be sure, that you don't fail, but most of times it is an overkill.

I think the biggest difference is that you dont have to do that if you dont want to. We have many viable builds and options now.

 

[Lizerd]

Are saurus kind of crazy good or is it just me?

180 points gets you 20, 4+ wounds.
In sunclaw its 80 rend 1 attacks.
3d6 rerolling charges means charges are fairly reliable.
Even with only oldblood and sunblood buffs the efficiency seems pretty insane.

They are kind of slow, but that seems easily remedied through sheer board control or tons of other units in the book.

No it’s not you, knights and warriors are pretty scary right now, just from the sheer volume of attacks and the mortal wounds we can tack on

 

[Putzfrau]

No it’s not you, knights and warriors are pretty scary right now, just from the sheer volume of attacks and the mortal wounds we can tack on

my only issue with knights is no rend, but yeah then number of attacks is pretty wild.

I wonder if a double sunclaw or sunclaw/firelance isnt the worst idea.

 

[Carnikang]

I'm afraid, testers on Bad Dice podcast also mentioned that it is d3 CCP per single slann, which hints that's not the intention.

The wording is very muddled. I'd rather wait for confirmation from GW. The Dreads costs clearly means that either he's just not able to be brought from summoning, or there definitely is a way to summon him.

Multiple D3 feels right.

 

[Kilvakar]

I'd really like for it to be multiple D3s, because otherwise summoning is basically dead. Even ignoring the Dread Saurian's ridiculously high cost, models with 30 point costs will still be very hard to summon in any regular game. With the Starborne still being relatively weak and with no more double teleport, having at least decent summoning would be really nice.

 

[Batch]

Well my interpretation was that it happens before spells, and reduces spells BY 1 (annoying I keep finding reviewers saying TO 1 when its written on the page)

So my thought would be keep doing it till it has no more spells to reduce correct? And this can be done for each ORACLE or SLANN. I think we need clarification (and I need my book to come in the mail >.>) but by the sounds summoning isn't dead, but stronger

 

[Kilvakar]

That would make a lot of sense. But there a lot of people (including every reviewer making videos) who all seem to think that the Slann/Oracle are only able to give up one spell per round. I hope that GW clarifies this. Since the Starborne didn't get much of anything other than minor buffs to warscrolls and lost double teleport, it would definitely make sense for them to be able to keep a good summoning mechanic. The sheer number of bonuses and buff stacking the Coalesced can get is what makes them really good, the Starborne deserve to have something going for them as well.

 

[ILKAIN]

hey guys... i think i have the single simplest answer to the sacrificing spells question. if its 1d3 for slann, and 1d3 for AB and 1d3 for only one spell, then our max per game is 45 points, and the Dread is 50. logically speaking it wouldn't make sense for them to make something that literally could not be summoned in a matched play game, so im thinking we can sac more than one spell, we just have to do it prior to casting any.

 

[sigmonstar]

hey guys... i think i have the single simplest answer to the sacrificing spells question. if its 1d3 for slann, and 1d3 for AB and 1d3 for only one spell, then our max per game is 45 points, and the Dread is 50. logically speaking it wouldn't make sense for them to make something that literally could not be summoned in a matched play game, so im thinking we can sac more than one spell, we just have to do it prior to casting any.

That's only if you take one slaan/Oracle. Remember you can sacrifice spells with any amount of models now, rather than just your general. In the case of only sacrificing one spell the slaan is equal to an astrolith if you only take one.

 

[Batch]

That's only if you take one slaan/Oracle. Remember you can sacrifice spells with any amount of models now, rather than just your general. In the case of only sacrificing one spell the slaan is equal to an astrolith if you only take one.

Well okay, lets say you include an Oracle, its another 15 points at most, but thats provided every time you roll a 5 or a 6, its not realistic