GCPD said:
Pinktaco said:
It's a matter of preferences for sure and yes we could've had something more in core, but as it is we still have saurus warriors who are still capable of doing something, we can drop skirmishers, cohort hordes, big skrox blocks or the smaller skrox darts. These are things people have seriously been discussing on this board about using.
I don't think that there's much more to say on this other than what we've agreed: that there isn't enough choice; certainly not enough to tailor a list around, so take whatever you want that brings you up to 25%. This might be balance - its certainly dull. Yes, there's a choice to make - is it an interesting, exciting and varied one? No, and that's the bit that makes it restrictive.
I think there's plenty of diversity with the lizardmen core. By my count, there are about six reasonable variations to choose from before we even talk about unit size and horde formations.
Lizardmen: heavy infantry, light infantry with extra options (krox), skirmish
Given the weapon choices being split, you're looking at being able to take
six different variations before repeating a unit (and that's before size): Block of spear saurus, block of hw/shield saurus, cohort, cohort with krox, skirmish javelins, skirmish blowpipes. Given the way these affect the unit's play, that's considerable diversity (two hard blocks, two skirmish variants that want different ranges, big hitting weak Skink+Krox, big cheap bunker skinks). Especially compared to other armies.
I guess I wonder which armies get a more interesting set of Core options? Yes, our book has only three entries. But the count of six variations is worth putting up against others.
Beastmen: Light infantry, lighter infantry, skirmish, beasts, chariot, options to ambush with half (rarely used)
Seems like a lot, but really it's blocks of gors and skirmishing ungors that get used. Even if we count Gors with shields as a variant option (no reason), there are only about
six real choices here.
Bretonnians: Two variants of heavy cav, light infantry, bowline
At max,
four choices. Given that many don't field the men-at-arms, you're looking at three. And given that knights errant and regular knights are pretty much the same function (some lack of control for discount), it's functionally
two choices.
Daemons: Four variants of light infantry with some special rules flavor for each
So clearly,
four. And, note that none of the options include the variety of skirmish or cav or other fun.
Dark Elves: Three variants of light infantry, fast cav
Some meaningful gear option choices here for the regulars and the corsairs, so it seems like about
six likely choices before core is exhausted.
Dwarfs: Two variants of heavy infantry, two variants of bowline
Yes, longbeards give some special rules... but it's really great weapons or hw/shield.
Four choices.
High Elves: two variants of light infantry, bowline, heavy cav
Five choices when thinking formationally. Cav gives some variation, but it's pretty plain in elf-land.
Ogres: monstrous infantry, slightly heavier armored monstrous infantry, light infantry, can the little things skirmish?
Limited, limited, limited. Given the cost of the big models, it means that they're stuck with big points core so minimal core. At best looking at
four options.
Orcs and Goblins: light tough infantry, light frenzy infantry (with some variations), light weak infantry with extra options (fanatics, skulkers), two options for light cav, potential bowline units
Aha, here we have some serious diversity. In my experience, it's reasonable to say that O&G have
ten+ core options to fiddle with that are game-effective.
Skaven: light infantry, lighter infantry, lightest infantry, giant rats, skirmishers, swarms, upgrade choices with weapon teams
Too many combinations to count quickly. I think we get distracted if we use Skaven as our benchmark. The weapon teams options alone mean that choosing core is one of the most fun portions of list-building here.
Empire: Many variants of light infantry, variants of bowline, one skirmish group, and heavy cav
I think Empire's core is
deceptively diverse. It's not as different as it might seem and while yes you can select a different force every game between spearmen, halberds, swordsmen and all the rest, it's all just micro-variation given the points. There's a 2 big blocks with 2 supporting blocks kind of feel to most infantry-heavy forces. And yes, you can go crazy and spam knights or gunline it. What really helps the diversity of creative choice is the detachments. Definitely a top winner, but I'm not prepared to give them the crown.
Tomb Kings: light infantry, bowline, light cavalry, chariot units
Good diversity in type, poor diversity in practice. I find that Tomb Kings rarely are successful if they play the "little of everything game", instead finding themselves focused on a type of army and then spamming core to match that type. So your "how am I going to win" limits the choices.
Four or less depending on self-placed restrictions.
Vampires: three flavors of light infantry, beasts
Yeah, no diversity here. They're blocks of replaceable troops, with the ghouls giving a bit of difference.
Four.
Warriors of Chaos: heavy infantry, light infantry, fast cav, beasts, marks which cause minor variation
Harder to number because of the marks, but in general you're looking at three styles of warriors (defense, MSU wood chipper, solid offense) and two of marauders (small diversion or big block). That makes about
seven choices before mark variation. So pretty diverse.
Wood Elves: melee skirmish, bowline, light infantry (you never see because of metal), fast cav
Really only
three options. Yes, an all eternal guard infantry blocks army would be amazing and could get some surprise wins, terribad metal models = kiss of death for the option.
Given that, I think there are three tiers when it comes to core complexity:
Tier One: Orcs and Goblins, Skaven, Empire, and Warriors of Chaos
Tier Two: Beastment, Dark Elves, Lizardmen, High Elves (being nice), Tomb Kings (being nice)
Tier Three: Daemons, Dwarfs, Ogres, Vampires, Wood Elves
Thus I think that despite only having three entries in the Core section, picking the core for Lizards is pretty complex. Lots of build options, and options that suit the other things you're going to include. I don't think it's a matter of simply "fill the 25%". I think that the core choices you make determine the other options that you're going to pursue, so they play a big role in diversity. And compared to other armies, Lizardmen are at least middle-of-the-pack when it comes to diversity of choice in Core, which leads to a lot more diversity in choice about what else in included.
Heck, I started this army recently because I wanted MORE diversity in choices than I was getting from my other two current armies (Daemons and Dwarfs).
Grass is greener issues maybe?
Cheers.
Andrew
