8th Ed. The Limits of lizard choices

[Mr Phat]

Intro: I have recently gotten a bit bored playing lizzies as i've tried every unit in the book and is more or less stuck in my playstyle.

as I don't really feel like collecting other armies I started looking through other army books for a proxy game or two with friends. Just to try some variation and get a better grip of the other armies.
after looking through some books it occurred to me that
other armies has an insane amount of different stuff to choose from!
I ran through a couple of books to count the total numbers and this is what I found:

(Special Characters not counted)

Lords
- Lizards: 2
- Empire 4
- High Elves 4
- Warriors: 3
- Orcs N gobs: 9
- VampC's: 3
- Daemons: 5

Heroes
- Lizards: 3
- Empire: 5
- High Elves: 5
- Warriors: 2
- Orcs N gobs: 9
- VampC's: 5
- Daemons: 4

Core
- Lizards: 3 (with an option for a fourth in the form of skrox)
- Empire: 8
- High Elves: 5
- Warriors: 6
- Orcs N gobs: 7
- VampC's: 8
- Daemons: 4


Special
- Lizards: 9
- Empire: 9
- High Elves: 8
- Warriors: 9
- Orcs N gobs: 10
- VampC's: 8
- Daemons: 10

Rare
- Lizards: 4
- Empire: 5
- High Elves: 5
- Warriors: 7
- Orcs N gobs: 8
- VampC's: 3
- Daemons: 6


Somehow I feel a little neglected, and realised that me getting stuck might actually be a result of the limits.
(Spawnings would have made for fun times...)

I was wondering if anybody felt the same.
I am aware that our stuff is great or at least well-working to some extend, but I keep falling back in the same tactics.

How do you guys keep lizards fun?
The "challenge of the month" thing is a great idea but I was looking for something a little more in general.
Do you experiment with unit sizes, multiple blocks of the same, doing stupid "HaH! THIS wont work!" stuff or whatever?

 

[Kroq]

My first army are O&Gs so i can totally understand the difference on the number of choices, i think the new lizardmen book has missed some opportunities for example on giving the saurus some "light" as skinks are in every army section:core,..,rare units but there's no saurus in rare. Another point it's choice competition, for example jungle swarms that should have stayed core as they are pretty common in Lustria but special units points are spent better on other things....

If you want more choices you can try to play with the updated Warhammer :World's Warrior's code where you can include SoM and monstrous arcanum monsters in your special choice allowance:
So you could try the wild cold ones ,Dread Saurian, or Hydra(as sacred beast of Sotek?) or even some cool dragons

 

[Mr Phat]

If you want more choices you can try to play with the updated Warhammer :World's Warrior's code where you can include SoM and monstrous arcanum monsters in your special choice allowance:

sigh

im in the position of not being in an environment that playes "outside the rules" with extra choices like this...but thanks for the idea, its something that COULD have been used

 

[Kroq]

Aw shame,
Well you could try silly combos like oldblood with wizard hat but i think that similar things could be funny one or two times than they become frustrating....

 

[n810]

OR some sort of fun Sotec/Tenehuan themed list.

 

[VampTeddy]

The Lizardmen flying circus?

Shadow slann.
Flying skink priest.
Oldladdin

Skink/kroxs units to keep up and have ranks.
Skirmishers
more skirmishers.

Ripperdactyls in units of 5
more of those
even more of those!
Terradons in units of 3 w/ or wo/ fireleech (per taste)
more of those
even more of those

Salamanders should be able to keep up as well but points ought to be dry about now. If not, i think CoC might actually suit this list!

I'd personally love to test out something like this !

SOmething along these lines :

2400pt Lizardmen 8th Ed Roster (Standard)

Lizardmen 8th Ed (Standard) Selections:

Lords

Saurus Oldblood
Cold Blooded, Predatory Fighter, Scaly Skin 4+
BRB - Armour of Destiny, BRB Arabyan Carpet, Hand Weapon, Shield

Slann Mage-Priest
Battle Standard Bearer, Lore of Shadows, The Becalming Cogitation

Heroes

Skink Priest
Aquatic, Arcane Vessel, Cold-Blooded, Scaly Skin (6+)
AB Cloak of Feathers, BRB Talisman of Protection, Hand Weapon, Lore of Heavens, To a Level 2 Wizard

Skink Priest
Aquatic, Arcane Vessel, Cold-Blooded, Scaly Skin (6+)
BRB Dispel Scroll, Hand Weapon, Lore of Heavens, To a Level 2 Wizard

Core
Skink Cohorts
3x Kroxigor, Musician, Skink Brave, Standard Bearer
29x Skink
29x Poisoned Attacks

Skink Skirmishers
11x Skink Skirmisher

Skink Skirmishers
11x Skink Skirmisher

Skink Skirmishers
11x Skink Skirmisher

Special

Ripperdactyl Riders
5x Ripperdactyl Riders

Ripperdactyl Riders
5x Ripperdactyl Riders

Ripperdactyl Riders
5x Ripperdactyl Riders

Terradon Riders
3x Terradon Rider

Terradon Riders
3x Terradon Rider

Terradon Riders
3x Terradon Rider


I'm just nervous about the lack of high strength, but hey! shadow is the solution for low strength armies anyways.

Most of my heroes fly, so my slann is practically flying as well, and i have tonnes of chaff clearance - i get three bloat markers, and i can't see how anyone should prevent 3 units of 5 rippers from seeing combat (albeit maybe they won't see the right one with their frenzy ).

Pros :
Movement is off the grid, 3 units of flying redirectors, 3 units of running redirectors.
Warmachine hunters en - masse, everything is so fast too, so close combat won't take long against a shooty army.
Slann can be easily transported around the battlefield with 2 flying characters to support him, and a third with movement 6.
Many skirmishers that can hunt monsters.
Multiple bloat toads, less fear of losing the ripper punch.

Cons :
Glass canon type list, tough 4 (5 on the oldladdin) as the highest, and an average of 2, something something.
Lack of high strength attacks, somewhat mitigated by armor piercing, but on high toughness enemies, only the skinks really stand a chance.
Lack of anchors - the list is so movement heavy, and so fragile in the defense, that none of the units can really hold up anything for a longer duration of time, can be somewhat mitigated with redirection.



There are probably more, but those are the ones apparent to me!

This list really has me hyped, and i want to go and get the abundance of flier kits to make it! i'm sure an opponent would be shocked. I won't at all claim this list is of the stronger kind we can make, but i do believe it'll be great fun to play! and who knows, maybe it will surprise me!

Will probably buy 1 more flier kit, maybe 2, next month

 

[Pinktaco]

I see what you mean but I still think we have a decent amount of units to choose from. With the exception of the trog every unit in the book can be used, although not all will be equally powerful.

IMO you're quite biased when you compare our book with others, for instance you list 8 core units with empire and 3-4 for us. I'd say we have 4 different and perfectly usable units (skrox, regular cohort, saurus, skirmishers), where as the empire have a lot of junk nobody would consider using. Most will tell you to use hordes of halbards, a bunch of knights and maybe some archers for mage bunkers. That's 3 where one of those is just a bunker. I'd wager that our skirmishers far outclassed their archers.

With that said I personally think that this should've been in the book:
1) drop the spear on our current CORs and drop the price, maybe drop the second mount attack and put them in core. Give us some truly elite riders (veteran riders or whatever) with an armour save of 1+ and halbards + magic banner as special. This would allow us to field a proper cavalry army. Nobody would've cared if COR were to be put in core..

2) make PF work with all ranks and thus make the new trog useful. This would've made the "only PF" armies much more viable and another decent build/choice.

Overall though if you're bored with how things currently are I'm not sure what to tell you. Have you tried the double carnosaur list? Only skinks, flying circus, MSU with saurus, monster mash? <.<

 

[Mr Phat]

I didnt list "useable" choices, only made a quick count around
I am fully aware that when we count good choices it looks different..but thats personal taste, as my friends constantly tells me to leave the saurus at home and fill core with skinks (which I do now, and it works better for me).
What I am pointing out is that no matter how bad they would be, we still has "less" tools to pick.
even if not CoR in Core ( ) then some weaker cavalry at least..if not for combat then for LoS for vets and blocking.

Have you tried the double carnosaur list? Only skinks, flying circus, MSU with saurus, monster mash? <.<

actually the mentioned flying circus sounds like fun (more fun than powerful ) and is the kind of answer I was looking for!
Have been monstermashing and have tried dual carno. Would love to try an "all skinks" list, but sadly I can barely fill core as it is

What is MSU ?

 

[Pinktaco]

Multiple small units. Wasn't there recently a thread on the forum about PF and smaller saurus units?

 

[Mr Phat]

Multiple small units. Wasn't there recently a thread on the forum about PF and smaller saurus units?

arh! thanks.
Havnt seen it? sound interesting, yet doubtful to work?

is it a "tons of 10-saurus" units we are speaking?

 

[Man0waR]

If you are trying crazy things for fun.

Have you ever play RPG? There's always a classical build in the player group. And Lizardmen can do that !

The Warrior - Scarvet / Oldblood
The Barbarian - Scarvet / Oldblood
The Holy Paragon - Full Equip Oldblood to deal with daemons, undead and dragons
The Thieft - Skink Chieftain
The Archer - Skink Chieftain
The Druid - Skink Priest w/ beast
The Bard - Skink Priest w/ heavens
The Cleric - Slann w/ Focus of Mistery
The Sorceror - Slann w/ Wandering deliverations
The followers - Skink skirmisher giving LoS
The guy who sacrifice for the greater good - skink brave who saves our heros from certain death accepting challenges.


Put all your characters in a skirmisher unit and laugh. As all are infantry models they can get Look Out Sir. If the unit seems to be near destroyed, join the fellowship to another skink unit.
As our Skirmish is core (not all armies has this options) you can set many bunkers.
Also you will need a crown of command for sure.

Isn't Crazy enough? Fill your core with Skrox, and Special and Rare with dinos and shout JUMANJI !!!

Maybe you will loss the game but... Fun and different kind of play is what you wanted.

 

[Electric Puha]

I seems to me that the lists limitations are what makes a lizardman army a lizardman army (or any army for that matter). If we had things like COR in core or carnasaur MC etc, then lizards would end up looking like warriors or empire clones (minus cannons I guess) . When people see blocks of saurus or a skink cloud, they know they're facing the lizards.

If you're bored of what the Lizards can do, why not try another army?

 

[Mr Phat]

If you're bored of what the Lizards can do, why not try another army?

I dont want to, I play WHFB for Lizardmen. Im a reptile kinda guy, and everything about them speaks to me. They are my guys.
I know it sounds like "bwuaah, I want the greener grass on the other side but refuse to go there *holds my breath*"

I am currently up for a "Count as" WoC game, where my lizards get to swing as though they were on the opposing team, though while making list for it I can already feel I miss some aspects from the lizzies.


When all comes down I guess im probably a spoiled guy who needs to do something else than warhammer for a while to keep it interesting.

 

[VampTeddy]

actually the mentioned flying circus sounds like fun (more fun than powerful ) and is the kind of answer I was looking for!


What is MSU ?

I doubt it is extremely powerful, but it does come with answers to most things

And tbh, you could make it full MSU / pick my fights by coverting the Skrox into smaller units of 10 skinks + krox with Mus, or going all skirmisher core !

it already has tonnes of drops, and tonnes of board control, the current issue is that with so many skirmishers it'll take up loads of space!

 

[Putzfrau]

Skink cloud is, in my opinion, one of the most tactically challenging armies to play.

The book is boring and uninspired but the fun comes from the tactics.

Can understand the boredom tho. I was hoping for some sweet saurus monstrous cav

 

[Mr Phat]

I need more skinks to make a true skink cloud.

I went lizardmen for Saurus to begin with, so thats were I invested first off -.-'
I hoped so much for new saurus options, either in choices or upgrades.
It still eludes me why TG cant take Greatweapon. Only reason for fairness there is if 9th makes them able to use it with the shield.

 

[GCPD]

It still eludes me why TG cant take Greatweapon.

Because the kit doesn't come with Great Weapons.

I actually kind of prefer halberds over Great Weapons. There's only a small number of cases where S6 is outright superior to S5; and even then, you have to work out whether having fewer attacks at S6 is better than more attacks at S5. With I2, Solar Engines, and easy access to Miasma and Hand of Glory, its not too difficult to get Temple Guard to the point where they are striking simultaneously, or even first.

On the other hand, Saurus Warriors with their crappy Weapon Skill, crappy Initiative, and being generally underwhelming, would really benefit from Great Weapons. I mean, we've got WS5 2A S6 Core Chaos Warriors, and WS5 S6 Core Dwarf Longbeards - would it really be that game breaking to have WS3 2A S6 Saurus? But, again, that would mean re-doing the plastic kit and so that's never going to happen.

It still greatly saddens me, though, that TG weren't given an Eternal Guard Fighting Style special rule where they can use their shields with halberds - or at least heavy armour. 2+ ranged and 3+ combat would make them the tanks that they should be. Then again, its not the only armour discrepancy in the book - Cold One Riders should definitely be running light armour and would really benefit from getting that 1+.

Back on topic. Yes, the books is extremely limited. Here's how Lizardmen list writing works: Take a Slann, because why not? You can't fit in two though, so you can either go party Slann with all the toys, or leave a few toys off and take an Oldblood. This is probably the biggest decision you'll face in list writing, and its really not all that hard: you'll probably take a Party Slann with all the toys because he becomes more efficient the more that you throw on him, and you really don't need the Oldblood because... Scar-Vets. Anytime you're looking to spend 150 points on something, stop and consider whether a Scar-Vet will be more effective. The answer, by the way, is yes - so you'll probably be rolling 2-3 of these guys, with a couple of Skink Priests armed with Dispel Scrolls and Cubes of Darkness, and maybe a Ripperdactyl Chief with the Egg. Sound familiar so far? Then we come to Core: doesn't matter, probably Skinks with Javelins. Some of them might be Skirmishing and some of them might have Kroxigor. Then Special: well, you need a combat unit because you're not getting it in Core, so a big block of Temple Guard. Round it off with Chameleon Skinks, Terradons or Ripperdactyls depending entirely on preference (that's your second decision, by the way, for those still counting) and if you feel it necessary, some Cold One Riders as Scar-Vet delivery systems. And at last we come to Rare: Ancient Stegadon with Sharpened Horns, Salamanders.

The vast majority of Lizardmen lists look like this for a reason. Your choices in Lords, Heroes and Rare are practically pre-determined by both the limited options and the poor internal balancing between what options there are in these sections. You have to bring 25% of your list in Core, and the only really worthwhile thing in there are Skinks, so you'll have lots of those. The one place where you do have valid choices, Special, is so overcrowded with options that by the time you get there, having already invested some 70% of your points on characters and Core Skinks, you don't have the points left for any choice to be meaningful.

I compare the Lizardmen to my Dark Elves book, where I have so many different build options I'm spoilt for choice and every one of them is effective: infantry hordes or Witch Elf/Corsair/Executioner Death Stars; MMU; MSU; cavalry lists, avoidance lists, monster mash, flying circus, Twin Towers, etc. Do I go level 4 solo, Dark Steed, foot or Dark Pegasus, or Council of Light? Support casters or Warlocks? Black Dragon Lord with Warlock support? Character heavy, or character light?

 

[Pinktaco]

I disagree. Your vision is too narrow-minded or you just doesn't bother anymore. Could we have done with more options? Yes, I've even stated so myself earlier so I don't disagree with that, however you make it sound too simple.

Compare the slann with any lvl 4 wizard and you'll realize we have an infinite more amount of options for him. Naked, cheap with only high magic/wandering, wandering with book of ashur, high magic with channel staff + discipline, etheral, etheral with BSB and warbanner?

Then comes the OB. You claim that the SVs are better. Well sure they're cheaper, but with the OB you can easily get a 1+ rerollable armour save and a 4+ ward save, S7 and.. you still got points to mess around with. Or you can have him on foot, still easily obtainable +1 armour save AND ward save. Hell if you want you can still go with the dawnstone. Just serioursly think about it, how many can do that and for that price point? He doesn't HAVE to have all that, you can also give him the +2A sword and either the dawnstone or ward save to rack up kills. Or however you like. On a CO he can be extremely hard to deal with for some factions with the 1+ AS/4+WS and T5. A scar vet can only have the armour of destiny if we want him to be similar. Point is, we're again spoiled with options. YOU might disagree with their efficiency, but they're there and for 251pts you can get the extremely tanky, mobile and killy OB.

And generally speaking I disagree with your view of taking units. It's a matter of preferences for sure and yes we could've had something more in core, but as it is we still have saurus warriors who are still capable of doing something, we can drop skirmishers, cohort hordes, big skrox blocks or the smaller skrox darts. These are things people have seriously been discussing on this board about using. Some prefer skink cohort units over saurus due to the high amount of S6 attacks in the game, some prefer the skink cloud style, I prefer to have at least 1 block of 30 saurus, others might take 2. In my next game I'll be taking 30 saurus and 2 skrox darts just to try it out. Again, YOU might disagree with this, but the options are there and people are actually discussing them and using them. It's not just something I'm throwing out there. Of course if you're looking for something drastically different it's another issue, but we aren't limited to one certain unit or something ridiculous.

I agree that templeguards are almost mandatory, but I've seen people going without, using regular saurus and fielding more scar vets. We're all different like that. Some are using big blocks of kroxigors, others are using units of 5-6 rippers, even others are using the same amount of rippers + another smaller unit for more toad drops.
Some are not using the slann so their using 2 priests and a couple of bastiladons, effectively. Some are liking it more than the slann. Oh and how about the double carnosaur list? Maybe not the most efficient list, but it's obviously working for some people. Again it's an option that we can take and who knows what 9th edition BRB will bring us?

The biggest issue I currently see is the PF rule. It's a simple rule that with a simple FAQ can not only changes our opinion/view of the poor troglodon, but also give us another option in terms of a more PF oriented army. Currently it's just a misssed opportunity though.

Some have claimed that our book is one of the most balanced book, if that's the case we shouldn't be nailed to one specific list since most things should be useful. But maybe I'm just a noob who's rambling on about things I shouldn't even consider talking about. I just wholeheartedly disagree with your view on our book. I've had times where I've just gone with a slann because hey - he's one of the only characters in the game who can be a wizard, general AND BSB on the same time, so easily obtainable Ld10, BSB and a dispel scroll. Trick him out a little and he might run you a mere 400-something pts which will allow you to do all kinds of things with your list. You dont NEED 3 scar vets, and a chief.. and a couple of priests. I mean., are you even being serious here because I don't think I've ever seen anyone listing that much crap from the character selection at one time. If that's how you play then fine, but I doubt most of the forum members do so.

 

[chefsdad]

I think if you look at competetive lists (bear in mind im totally an armchair general, and im talkingfrom what i see on social media etc and my own deductions), then youll find that many armies options are limited.

That said, I aggree with Pinktaco. I think the options in the book are deceptive.


Slann

Most armies will take one. they all have the same stats, and access to the same disciplines. However, the combionations of disciplines and magic items will change the character massively. For example, a naked death slann will play differently to a tooled up wandering deliberations, soul of stone etc, whihc will play differently to a wound-regenerating, magic res creating ethereal slann with flaming ward. Not all builds are optimal, but they do make the character behave differently.


Oldblood/scar vet


Mega tooled or almost naked, cold one, carnosaur or on foot. BSB or no BSB. All the same character, but different set ups affect the way the character, and to some extent the rest of the army, behaves. This alos applies in a similar vein to chiefs - who can also act as pure chaff and give better leadership to roaming skirmishers outside of general.


Priests

Vassal-fodder/scroll caddy? Heavens/beasts? of youre taking beasts, are you going to run a slann (due to dice intesiveness of the lore)? are you going to run one or two? spam wildform? multiple lvl 2's for spell selection? what are your other units and characters doing?



core

Ok, this is a struggle, but it depends on the characters and rest of the list.

Mix of cohorts? Hordes of Corts with poison and a skink character? Krox darts or bigger krox units?

Small saurus bunker, or horde with a character?

Pure skirmisher core? (javs or blowpipes? mix of both?) Or a mix of all three (or four)?



Special


A ton of choice here, no need to discuss really

Rare

If youre taking a Troglodon, how can you maximise its effectiveness? large Krox unit and multiple scar vets to capitalise on Primeval roar? Death slann to make use of Vassal? War machine hunter? redirector? (!?), chaff clearer?

Engine, sharpened horns,stampede?










What ive found about the lizard book (and im sure many would agree) is that everything in the army has to work with the rest of it to be effective. Slann will not solo a game, it needs scar vets to kill armour and skinks/temple guard to hide in. Skinks cant kill everything on their own, they need leadership and high strength models to back them up. Scar vets cant solo armies (well, i guess they can sometimes ), they need redirectors and chaff clearers to get them where they need to be. I think that even the most terrible choices can work, as long as the rest of the army works to capitalise on its effectiveness.



I think that when it comes down to choices and ariety in books, the less you care about competetiveness, the more variety you gain.










Regarding that last comment, the people who know me will either think ive found god, or Im taking the biscuit. Turns out i have a bit of a repuation at my local gaming group for always taking filth (without having any actual skill ).

 

[GCPD]

Some have claimed that our book is one of the most balanced book, if that's the case we shouldn't be nailed to one specific list since most things should be useful. But maybe I'm just a noob who's rambling on about things I shouldn't even consider talking about. I just wholeheartedly disagree with your view on our book. I've had times where I've just gone with a slann because hey - he's one of the only characters in the game who can be a wizard, general AND BSB on the same time, so easily obtainable Ld10, BSB and a dispel scroll. Trick him out a little and he might run you a mere 400-something pts which will allow you to do all kinds of things with your list. You dont NEED 3 scar vets, and a chief.. and a couple of priests. I mean., are you even being serious here because I don't think I've ever seen anyone listing that much crap from the character selection at one time. If that's how you play then fine, but I doubt most of the forum members do so.

You are entirely welcome to disagree. However, my experience has been that 1-3 Scar-Vets, 1-2 Skink Priests and 0-1 Chiefs are the norm in most lists that I look at. Obviously you can't get all in depending on the size of the list, and the exact numbers will vary depending on which combination you go for. Whilst 3 Scar-Vets are probably an extreme and 2 more common, it does happen.

Point is, we're again spoiled with options. YOU might disagree with their efficiency, but they're there and for 251pts you can get the extremely tanky, mobile and killy OB.

Actually, I did agree that Oldbloods are one of the few places where Lizardmen get an interesting choice to make. Do you loadup on a Slann, or not put all your eggs in one basked and squeeze an Oldblood in? A Slann gets better with the more stuff you give him (a WD Slann is good, but that's still a 330 point investment that's subject to the Winds of Magic: in other words, he's liable to having lots of spells but not much dice to cast with. On the other hand, if you start kitting him out with 3 channel dice on 5s and Reservoir, then he'll generate more dice and give you a better pay off). I have in fact been experimenting with an Oldblood recently, and whilst I like his WS6 and think that he's great for his cost, I'm not convinced he's all that much superior to a much cheaper Scar-Vet. 1+ re-rollable/4++ isn't that much more survivable than a straight 1+ re-rollable, or a 1+/4++, or T6 1+. Jury's still out, though. I wouldn't say that choosing between two Oldbloods, a Slann and an Oldblood, or tooled up Slann and Scar-Vets is being "spoilt" for options, though.

It's a matter of preferences for sure and yes we could've had something more in core, but as it is we still have saurus warriors who are still capable of doing something, we can drop skirmishers, cohort hordes, big skrox blocks or the smaller skrox darts. These are things people have seriously been discussing on this board about using.

Yes, and I have been following these discussions with interest. I'm keen to see how they work out on the field, as most of them are deliberate attempts to do something different to break out from the problem that we've just described. I don't think that there's much more to say on this other than what we've agreed: that there isn't enough choice; certainly not enough to tailor a list around, so take whatever you want that brings you up to 25%. This might be balance - its certainly dull. Yes, there's a choice to make - is it an interesting, exciting and varied one? No, and that's the bit that makes it restrictive.

Finally, I won't disagree that Special is the place where you get lots of choices to make. My point is that the rest of the list is so restricted that I rarely feel like I'm able to make a meaningful decision: by the time I get to Special it feels like I'm just tinkering around the edges with whatever points are left over. I've got my 800 points of various characters (roughly the average amount for a Slann, two Scar-Vets and Skink Priest), and 600 points in Core, leaving ~1000 left over for the common points size. Chuck 400 of that into Temple Guard or Kroxigor for an actually effective combat unit; now you've only got ~600 left to play around with and you haven't even touched Rare or got any big, stompy monsters. Saying that there's lots of choices to make in Special is all well and good, but not so much when you consider the practicalities.