8th Ed. The Best Monstrous Infantry unit in all of Warhammer

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Great Weapons it is for the Ushabti, thanks. Now, the final unit that has a loadout still to be decided is Chaos Ogres. @NIGHTBRINGER, as our resident WoC fan, I’d be interested to hear about your optimum build for this unit.

To be honest, I've never fielded them myself. They aren't really a popular choice in the WoC army book as far as I've read/discussed.

The choice pretty much comes down to:

• MoN + GW
• MoK + AHW

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

To be honest, I've never fielded them myself. They aren't really a popular choice in the WoC army book as far as I've read/discussed.

The choice pretty much comes down to:

• MoN + GW
• MoK + AHW

Given we already have a representative of Grandfather Nurgle in the form of the Bile Trolls, I’ll give the Khorne build a go in this tourney. Slaanesh also has a representative in the form of the Skin Wolves, who can take Mark of Slaanesh to give them Always Strikes First, which combined with Initiative 5 should prove a powerful combination in this contest, so only Tzeentch seems to be sadly lacking a champion. If Tzaangor Enlightened were a thing in Warhammer Fantasy they’d be great representative of the Raven God, but unfortunately they were created after Warhammer Fantasy ended

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl . I can see that with the creation of this thread, your participation in the best close combat unit thread has dwindled.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Given we already have a representative of Grandfather Nurgle in the form of the Bile Trolls, I’ll give the Khorne build a go in this tourney. Slaanesh also has a representative in the form of the Skin Wolves, who can take Mark of Slaanesh to give them Always Strikes First, which combined with Initiative 5 should prove a powerful combination in this contest, so only Tzeentch seems to be sadly lacking a champion. If Tzaangor Enlightened were a thing in Warhammer Fantasy they’d be great representative of the Raven God, but unfortunately they were created after Warhammer Fantasy ended

I have never heard of Bile Trolls and Skin Wolves... Is this End Times troops?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I have never heard of Bile Trolls and Skin Wolves... Is this End Times troops?

You can find the Bile Trolls of Chaos in the pages of the Forge World book Tamurkhan - The Throne of Chaos.


The Skin Wolves (and Fimir Warriors) are from another Forge World book called Monstrous Arcanum. You can also find the same Bile Trolls here as you did in Tamurkhan. Monstrous Arcanum is also the home to things like the Dread Saurian, Khemric Titan and an even more deadly version of the K'daai Destroyer (which now has access to some really OP upgrades).

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I have never heard of Bile Trolls and Skin Wolves... Is this End Times troops?

You can find the Bile Trolls of Chaos in the pages of the Forge World book Tamurkhan - The Throne of Chaos.


The Skin Wolves (and Fimir Warriors) are from another Forge World book called Monstrous Arcanum. You can also find the same Bile Trolls here as you did in Tamurkhan.

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl . I can see that with the creation of this thread, your participation in the best close combat unit thread has dwindled.

Dwindled maybe, but vanished, no. Seeing the performance of my favourite unit deteriorate and my least favourite unit go from strength to strength has somewhat reduced my enthusiasm admittedly, but I will still look in on it every so often to see the overall state of play for all the competitors. Besides, it’s nearly finished, and one of my intentions with this thread was to keep everyone engaged for a long while afterwards to pick up where your contest has left off.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

You can find the Bile Trolls of Chaos in the pages of the Forge World book Tamurkhan - The Throne of Chaos.


The Skin Wolves (and Fimir Warriors) are from another Forge World book called Monstrous Arcanum. You can also find the same Bile Trolls here as you did in Tamurkhan. Monstrous Arcanum is also the home to things like the Dread Saurian, Khemric Titan and an even more deadly version of the K'daai Destroyer (which now has access to some really OP upgrades).

Huh....

How official is this? Like it's an official add-on to 8th edition? When I was asking about the Monstrous Arcanum before, it was an "agree with your opponent beforehand" thing...

And is the Tamurkhan book the same thing?

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Huh....

How official is this? Like it's an official add-on to 8th edition? When I was asking about the Monstrous Arcanum before, it was an "agree with your opponent beforehand" thing...

And is the Tamurkhan book the same thing?

Monstrous Arcanum is essentially a Forge World expansion to the GW-written expansion Storm of Magic, so while the units in this book wouldn’t be seen in a regular Warhammer Fantasy game, it is 100% official if you’re playing a Storm of Magic game. I wanted to include the Fimir and Skin Wolves in the tourney because they are 100% official non-End Times Monstrous infantry units, so by all accounts they should be allowed to have a pop in the tournament.

The Tamurkhan book is where the rules for the Forge World Legion of Azgorh units come from as well as those for Tamurkhan’s Horde, so it is definitely an official book. @NIGHTBRINGER has already entered a unit from this book into his contest (the K’daai Destroyer), so it’s only fair that I should be able to enter units from it into mine (the K’daai Fireborn and Bile Trolls).

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Having seen the performance of my favourite unit deteriorate and my least favourite unit go from strength to strength has somewhat reduced my enthusiasm admittedly

Besides, it’s nearly finished,

We're at the halfway point. Hardly finished.

and one of my intentions with this thread was to keep everyone engaged for a long while afterwards to pick up where your contest has left off

A noble and welcomed endeavor

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Huh....

How official is this? Like it's an official add-on to 8th edition? When I was asking about the Monstrous Arcanum before, it was an "agree with your opponent beforehand" thing...

And is the Tamurkhan book the same thing?

Opinions may vary on this topic, but I'll share what I've seen/heard and what I personally think (for what it's worth). I'll list things from "most official" to "least official" (and the numbers are simply my subjective approximations... mainly because I like numbers... treat them as unofficial )...

MOST OFFICIAL

1. 100% official/acceptance - Core rulebook and the 15 main army books released directly from GW (i.e. not Forge World). These include the 12 army books released under 8th edition, the 7th edition army books for Beastmen and Skaven and lastly the 6th edition army book for Bretonnia. Included here are also all the related FAQs and Erratas released for the BRB and army books (with one exception... noted in point #3 below)
2. ≈90-95% official/acceptance - Legion of Azgorh (Chaos Dwarfs) from the Tamurkhan book. The most/only official way to play Chaos Dwarfs. In my experience it was largely accepted as a fully fledged official warhammer army. Most tournaments allowed their use as well. Still, it is not as official as one of the core army books. Some people might take issue with it due to inexperience with the rules or a preconceived notion of Forge World rules (which have a rather checkered past). Still, the Chaos Dwarfs roster is well balanced and typically rated somewhere in the middle tier in terms of power level, so it is pretty easy to include it in standard Warhammer games. I do have a backup plan in case of their refusal!! (because of course I do! )
3. ≈50-75% official/acceptance - The Lore of Undeath. This one is a bit tricky. While it comes from the End Times, which is far from official, its inclusion in the BRB Amendments/Errata complicates things. I have heard arguments made that since it is part of the the official BRB Eratta (which makes no distinction of it being used only in End Times games), strict adherence to RAW would dictate that it is fully official. Others, will argue that since it is from the End Times, you'd still need permission from your opponent.
4. ≈25% official/acceptance - all other expansion material. This includes rest of Tamurkhan outside of the Chaos Dwarfs, Monstrous Arcanum, Storm of Magic, Triumph and Treachery, End Times, etc. Some of these radically change the very foundation of the game while others disproportionately advantage certain armies over others. You most definitely need your opponent's permission!! Personally I'd be happy to experiment with some of these (Tamurkhan, T&T), I'm a little unsure/hesitant on others (Monstrous Arcanum, Storm of Magic) and would outright refuse others (End Times).
   
5. ≈0-5% official/acceptance - "Experimental rules" from Forge World. Never part of an actual book, they were pdf files on the Forge World website coinciding with the models they were selling.
   
6. 0% official - House rules

Realistically, the only thing that is 100% pure official and never needing an opponent's permission is #1. The Legion of Azgorh is pretty close behind this, but there is a distinction between the two. Everything else is pretty murky waters. When dealing with anything other than #1, best practice would be to run it by your opponent first.

Of course at the end of the day it comes down to those you play with. Even experimental rules from Forge World can be fully utilized while at the same time deciding to throw out fully official entries from #1. As long as everyone is in agreement, the skies the limit!

Anyways, that's my two cents on the topic. I make no effort to hide my bias for Chaos Dwarfs, but I've tried to answer it as objectively as I can.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Seeing the performance of my favourite unit deteriorate and my least favourite unit go from strength to strength has somewhat reduced my enthusiasm admittedly

On the plus side, your favourite unit currently find themselves tied in the standings with the Chaos Warriors... a unit that you have long claimed was completely overpowered!

 

[Killer Angel]

≈25% official/acceptance - all other expansion material. This includes rest of Tamurkhan outside of the Chaos Dwarfs, Monstrous Arcanum, Storm of Magic, Triumph and Treachery, End Times, etc. Some of these radically change the very foundation of the game while others disproportionately advantage certain armies over others. You most definitely need your opponent's permission!! Personally I'd be happy to experiment with some of these (Tamurkhan, T&T), I'm a little unsure/hesitant on others (Monstrous Arcanum, Storm of Magic) and would outright refuse others (End Times).

Funnily enough, in our gaming group End Times was the only way the game could be played.
When the ET arrived, the shop owners declared that the official lore was that and so the games had to follow the new rules for heroes allotments.

It was a valid point back in the days...

Actually, the only reason to play with those rules is if you want to play a game that uses that specific WHFB period.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Funnily enough, in our gaming group End Times was the only way the game could be played.
When the ET arrived, the shop owners declared that the official lore was that and so the games had to follow the new rules for heroes allotments.

It was a valid point back in the days...

Actually, the only reason to play with those rules is if you want to play a game that uses that specific WHFB period.

Which hearkens back to my final point that the only thing that really matters is that everyone in the gaming group chooses to accept and adopt the rule/rule-set. At that point, the officiality of a publication or rule has little bearing.

Although I must admit that I do find it strange that shop owners declared that games must played with those rules. That could backfire on them very quickly.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I agree that the proposed Maneater layout looks pretty good, but with the additional point that any of them in the second rank should have GW (as they cannot use AHW to gain another attack).

Agreed. That's a really good point!

With AHW in the front, GW in the back, poisoned attacks and stubborn, the Maneaters are going to be tough to beat!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Agreed. That's a really good point!

With AHW in the front, GW in the back, poisoned attacks and stubborn, the Maneaters are going to be tough to beat!

The funny thing is that in a normal battle, I wouldn't give them Poisoned Attacks as I'd give them Scouts or Vanguard (as it's SOOOOOOOO nice to have a really dangerous unit pop up ANYWHERE YOU WANT ON THE BATTLEFIELD [cue evil laughter]).

But it's a pretty fearsome layout, especially with the AHW in the front!

 

[Killer Angel]

Although I must admit that I do find it strange that shop owners declared that games must played with those rules. That could backfire on them very quickly.

Let's say that it was more related to the games played by the owners themselves (which happened very often), not by games played by anyone else.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Let's say that it was more related to the games played by the owners themselves (which happened very often), not by games played by anyone else.

Fair enough. That sounds much more reasonable.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

@Lizards of Renown @NIGHTBRINGER @Killer Angel Would you care to have a guess at who you’d think will come out on top?

Otherwise, I’ve got things just about ready. The remaining options I have decided upon are that the Greenskin Trolls will be River Trolls for the juicy -1 to hit, and the Minotaurs will take Additional Hand Weapons, as their Strength 5 means they don’t need to worry so much about sacrificing their decent initiative for Great Weapons.

Now for a heads-up. The first bout will be an ancestral grudge match - Kroxigors vs Rat Ogres, Lizardmen vs Skaven! Who do you think will win? Who do you want to win (as if there’d be any debate on a Lizardman forum )? Let me know, and I’ll reward you by posting the first results tomorrow!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@Lizards of Renown @NIGHTBRINGER @Killer Angel Would you care to have a guess at who you’d think will come out on top?

Do you have an official list of all the builds (including weapon options, magic standards, etc.)?


Also... are we picking just the first place or the first and last places?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

@Lizards of Renown @NIGHTBRINGER @Killer Angel Would you care to have a guess at who you’d think will come out on top?

Do you have an official list of all the builds (including weapon options, magic standards, etc.)?

Also... are we picking just the first place or the first and last places?

+1