8th Ed. The Best Monstrous Infantry unit in all of Warhammer

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Hello one and all!

Inspired by @NIGHTBRINGER’s ‘Best melee unit in all of Warhammer’ contest, I’ve been mulling over an idea I first thought of recently. Most of the units involved in @NIGHTBRINGER’s tourney are Infantry or Monstrous Cavalry, but I also think Monstrous Infantry can be a force to be reckoned with in combat even though they were underrepresented, so I’ve devised a contest where I pitch every Monstrous Infantry unit against each other in bloody Warhammer combat to decide who is on top in this Troop Type.

Da Fightaz
As mentioned before, I’m entering every Monstrous Infantry unit into my contest, so the brawlers slugging it out will be:
Albion/non-aligned
Fenbeasts

Beastmen
Minotaurs

Creatures of Chaos
Fimir Warriors
Skin Wolves

Chaos Dwarfs
K’daai Fireborn

Lizardmen
Kroxigors

Ogre Kingdoms
Ogre Bulls
Ironguts
Maneaters
Yhetees

Orcs and Goblins
River Trolls

Skaven
Rat Ogres

Tamurkhan’s Horde
Bile Trolls

Tomb Kings
Ushabti

Vampire Counts
Crypt Horrors
Vargheists

Warriors of Chaos
Chaos Ogres
Chaos Trolls

Wood Elves
Tree Kin

Of course, some of these units have additional options to play with, so I’m asking you, the Lustrian fans of Warhammer Fantasy, to choose which equipment loadouts of each of these units are the best, as in @NIGHTBRINGER’s contest. Specifically I would like those with a particular expertise in particular armies to recommend the best loadouts on those armies’ units, so I’m consulting @Lizards of Renown and @Charlemagne to give the best combos in each of the four Ogre units for example (remember this is purely the specific units on their own, so no characters allowed). As the only Greenskin player and the only one on this forum who has ever given Beastmen any consideration, I’ll be deciding the choices for the Minotaurs and Trolls.

Da Roolz
The rules will be akin to those of @NIGHTBRINGER’s contest:

Guidelines:

• focus only on non-character units, as an analysis of characters is better left for a separate thread
• consider the units on their own, without character support (i.e. if you feel the Gutstar unit is not viable without its characters, then don't list it)
• the focus is purely on close combat efficiency, regardless of core, special or rare categorization or troop type
• consider the unit's close combat power in relation to their points cost (overcosted units need not apply)
• for a unit to qualify, they should be able to beat most other units of equal points value in close combat
• units capable of winning combat in a wide range of circumstances should be given priority over units that only perform well under a very narrow range of circumstances (i.e. getting the charge)
• consider the units fielded in their very best setup (size, weapon options, magic standards, formation, etc.)

Procedural rules utilized:

• Combats will be treated as ongoing. So no charge bonuses for either side.
• Fear tests will be assumed as being passed
• Unit sizes will be adjusted to create the fairest possible balance in terms of points (obviously, single entity monster vs. monster matchups will be uneven)
• Each unit will be stuck using their overall best loadout, even if it is sub-optimal in a particular matchup. For example, Ensorcelled weapons are the best option for Skullcrushers in most situations, but not against the Banner of the World Dragon due to ensorcelled weapons being magical. While Skullcrushers would be better off not upgrading to Ensorcelled Weapons in this matchup, they will be forced to do so. This is is partially to avoid problems of counter picking, and the resultant doubling of the number of match calculations I would have to make.
• Unit formations will be optimized within the normal/typical range we find them on the battlefield. No unit will be narrower than 5 models wide and no unit will be wider than 10 models wide (horde).
• Partial wounds will be carried forward from one round of combat to another (i.e. a Hell Pit Abomination could be sitting on 4.2 wounds going into a subsequent round of combat).
• For the purpose of calculating combat results, partial wounds of 0.4 or lower will be rounded down and 0.5 or higher will be rounded up.
• abilities that are in effect for the first round of combat, but not charge dependent (i.e. hatred, Choppas, etc.) will be incorporated into the calculations for the first round.
• units losing combat and requiring a break test (or Daemonic Instability test), will be assumed to roll a "7". Meaning that if they required a roll of 6 or lower to pass, they will be assumed to have broken from combat and lose the contest right there and then. Units requiring a roll of 7, 8, 9 or 10 will be assumed to have passed their break test and the combat will move onto the next round.

How unit formations are selected/considered:

• the goal is to make things as fair as possible for both sides, so I try to take on the viewpoint as the general of each unit. In a contentious matchup I'll flip back and forth between sides, playing devil's advocate.
• the key aim is to ensure that no one side gets the opportunity to "counter pick" their unit formation (unit width) against the other unit's formation. So for example, if a unit of Chaos Warriors were to be fielded 5-wide, I wouldn't field an opposing unit of Savage Orcs 7-wide if it gave them an unfair advantage (meaning that the Chaos Warriors would be better served going 7-wide themselves, or vice versa).
• when a matchup looks fishy, I'll run alternate scenarios to see if a victory was arrived at simply due to how the unit formations were selected.
• in the case of a Monster, the opposing unit will always be placed in the most advantageous formation, because in game terms, there is nothing the Monster general can do about it
• similarly to the point above, if a unit is completely fixed on a unit formation, regardless of the formation chosen by their opponent, then they are allowed to do so. For example if a unit of Witch Elves is best played as a Horde, regardless of the formation chosen by the opposing unit, then the Witch Elves are fielded as a horde (and the opponent in the best formation to face that horde)
• obviously I can't test every combination of opposing unit formations, but I try my best to make it as fair as possible. I also rely on you guys to give me feedback in the event that you come across something that I had not considered.
• usually, wider formations seem to work best, but there have been rare exceptions. Sometimes, I'll even post these "alternate scenarios" so you can see how events change based on variations in unit formation. For the purposes of the tournament though, only the result from what I think is the fairest representation of the matchup is used (unless there is significant feedback indicating otherwise.

So the last thing to do is to say PLACE YOUR BETS!

Da Scorez
I'm including a scoreboard in this inaugural post to keep track of the fortunes and failures of the different units throughout the contest. The current scores on the doors are:

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Hello one and all!

Inspired by @NIGHTBRINGER’s ‘Best melee unit in all of Warhammer’ contest, I’ve been mulling over an idea I first thought of recently. Most of the units involved in @NIGHTBRINGER’s tourney are Infantry or Monstrous Cavalry, but I also think Monstrous Infantry can be a force to be reckoned with in combat even though they were underrepresented, so I’ve devised a contest where I pitch every Monstrous Infantry unit against each other in bloody Warhammer combat to decide who is on top in this Troop Type.

The Fighters
As mentioned before, I’m entering every Monstrous Infantry unit into my contest, so the brawlers slugging it out will be:
Beastmen
Minotaurs

Legion of Azgorh
K’daai Fireborn

Lizardmen
Kroxigors

Ogre Kingdoms
Ogre Bulls
Ironguts
Maneaters
Yhetees

Orcs and Goblins
Trolls

Skaven
Rat Ogres

Tamurkhan’s Horde
Bile Trolls

Tomb Kings
Ushabti

Vampire Counts
Crypt Horrors
Vargheists

Warriors of Chaos
Chaos Ogres
Chaos Trolls

Wood Elves
Tree Kin

Of course, some of these units have additional options to play with, so I’m asking you, the Lustrian fans of Warhammer Fantasy, to choose which equipment loadouts of each of these units are the best, as in @NIGHTBRINGER’s contest. Specifically I would like those with a particular expertise in particular armies to recommend the best loadouts on those armies’ units, so I’m consulting @Lizards of Renown and @Charlemagne to give the best combos in each of the four Ogre units for example (remember this is purely the specific units on their own, so no characters allowed). As the only Greenskin player and the only one on this forum who has ever given Beastmen any consideration, I’ll be deciding the choices for the Minotaurs and Trolls.

Da Roolz
The rules will be akin to those of @NIGHTBRINGER’s contest:


So the last thing to do is to say PLACE YOUR BETS!

Marking my place here.

 

[Imrahil]

Good going on this @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl !

Lizardmen
Kroxigors

Tomb Kings
Ushabti

I am happy to see those two armies represented in a combat contest

My lack of experience on loadouts makes me just a spectator to enjoy the fight

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Wyvernaarch]

I'm not an expert in Ogre Kingdoms but I think Maneaters would benefit most from additional hand weapons, as well as Poisoned Attacks and Stubborn combination (from their Been There, Done That rule). Another popular loadout was to give them braces of pistols, Poisoned Attacks and Sniper, but it seems less useful in pure melee.
Oh, and I'd like to place my bet on them.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Hello one and all!

Inspired by @NIGHTBRINGER’s ‘Best melee unit in all of Warhammer’ contest, I’ve been mulling over an idea I first thought of recently. Most of the units involved in @NIGHTBRINGER’s tourney are Infantry or Monstrous Cavalry, but I also think Monstrous Infantry can be a force to be reckoned with in combat even though they were underrepresented, so I’ve devised a contest where I pitch every Monstrous Infantry unit against each other in bloody Warhammer combat to decide who is on top in this Troop Type.

An intriguing experiment. I look forward to seeing this one unfold and what gems of insight it will grant us.

So the last thing to do is to say PLACE YOUR BETS!

Approximately what sized units do you plan on running points-wise? (obviously giving or taking to balance the units)

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl is there a particular reason why the Ogre Kingdom Gorgers were left off the list or is it simply and error of omission?


How are break tests for Kroxigors to be handled? In my tourney we assumed that an average roll of 7 was rolled, but seeing as the Kroxigors are cold-blooded it might be worth while to assume that Kroxigors would roll a slightly lower number (like a "5").

Also, how are Predatory Fighter attacks from supporting ranks to be handled? Yay or nay?

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Approximately what sized units do you plan on running points-wise? (obviously giving or taking to balance the units)

I’m thinking around 300-320 points per unit will suffice - this sets them up to a good size of around 5 or 6 models (or even more in the case of cheaper units) and is usually the sort of size people take (sometimes they may take larger units but these can become expensive point-sinks).

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl is there a particular reason why the Ogre Kingdom Gorgers were left off the list or is it simply and error of omission?

I left Gorgers off the list because they can only be taken in units of 1 for inexplicable reasons. Would an Ogre player take up a significant portion of his Special slot by taking 5 or 6 individual Gorgers, and then send them all toward the same opponent? @Lizards of Renown as our resident Ogre Tyrant, perhaps you could be able to enlighten us?

How are break tests for Kroxigors to be handled? In my tourney we assumed that an average roll of 7 was rolled, but seeing as the Kroxigors are cold-blooded it might be worth while to assume that Kroxigors would roll a slightly lower number (like a "5").

I certainly agree with this and was thinking about it last night. Kroxigors are certainly more likely to pass Leadership tests of 5 or 6 thanks to Cold Blooded, so I will set their roll as a 5.

Also, how are Predatory Fighter attacks from supporting ranks to be handled? Yay or nay?

I don’t see why Predatory Fighter shouldn’t affect supporting attacks as well - I’ve always allowed supporting attacks to benefit from PF in my games - especially as this will make calculating the number of PF bonus attacks especially easy (divide the total number of attacks by 6 to get those that only get a hit roll of 6).

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

@NIGHTBRINGER @Lizards of Renown @Killer Angel as fully-fledged Tomb Kings players, what loadout do you think the Ushabti should have? Additional hand weapons would allow them to strike at their decent Initiative of 3, but Great Weapons would help boost their Strength.

I'm not an expert in Ogre Kingdoms but I think Maneaters would benefit most from additional hand weapons, as well as Poisoned Attacks and Stubborn combination (from their Been There, Done That rule). Another popular loadout was to give them braces of pistols, Poisoned Attacks and Sniper, but it seems less useful in pure melee.
Oh, and I'd like to place my bet on them.

Right, I’ll give them that combo if other Ogre Kingdoms players here agree (@Lizards of Renown I’m counting on you here!), thanks for your input. Are there any combos for other units you’d recommend?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I’m thinking around 300-320 points per unit will suffice - this sets them up to a good size of around 5 or 6 models (or even more in the case of cheaper units) and is usually the sort of size people take (sometimes they may take larger units but these can become expensive point-sinks).



I left Gorgers off the list because they can only be taken in units of 1 for inexplicable reasons. Would an Ogre player take up a significant portion of his Special slot by taking 5 or 6 individual Gorgers, and then send them all toward the same opponent? @Lizards of Renown as our resident Ogre Tyrant, perhaps you could be able to enlighten us?


I certainly agree with this and was thinking about it last night. Kroxigors are certainly more likely to pass Leadership tests of 5 or 6 thanks to Cold Blooded, so I will set their roll as a 5.


I don’t see why Predatory Fighter shouldn’t affect supporting attacks as well - I’ve always allowed supporting attacks to benefit from PF in my games - especially as this will make calculating the number of PF bonus attacks especially easy (divide the total number of attacks by 6 to get those that only get a hit roll of 6).

I am a very fledgling OK player unfortunately.

I agree that the proposed Maneater layout looks pretty good, but with the additional point that any of them in the second rank should have GW (as they cannot use AHW to gain another attack).

The Ogres should have AHW in my opinion.

The Ironguts only have a GW loadout.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

@NIGHTBRINGER @Lizards of Renown @Killer Angel as fully-fledged Tomb Kings players, what loadout do you think the Ushabti should have? Additional hand weapons would allow them to strike at their decent Initiative of 3, but Great Weapons would help boost their Strength.



Right, I’ll give them that combo if other Ogre Kingdoms players here agree (@Lizards of Renown I’m counting on you here!), thanks for your input. Are there any combos for other units you’d recommend?

I think the Ushabti should AHW as otherwise they will be striking last and I believe (based on our other ongoing competition) that this will be their undoing...

@NIGHTBRINGER @Killer Angel what do you guys reckon?

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I agree that the proposed Maneater layout looks pretty good, but with the additional point that any of them in the second rank should have GW (as they cannot use AHW to gain another attack).

I thought Monstrous Infantry could make all their attacks when supporting, including any bonus ones for additional hand weapons?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl is there a particular reason why the Ogre Kingdom Gorgers were left off the list or is it simply and error of omission?


How are break tests for Kroxigors to be handled? In my tourney we assumed that an average roll of 7 was rolled, but seeing as the Kroxigors are cold-blooded it might be worth while to assume that Kroxigors would roll a slightly lower number (like a "5").

Also, how are Predatory Fighter attacks from supporting ranks to be handled? Yay or nay?

I have always played that PF doesn't affect the second rank as the rules (to me) are clear that they can only ever have one attack.

But this is @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl 's rodeo so he can call the shot on it.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

The Ironguts only have a GW loadout.

Indeed that is the case, but do you think they should take a Magic Standard, as they can do so?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I thought Monstrous Infantry could make all their attacks when supporting, including any bonus ones for additional hand weapons?

In the BRB it says, "A monstrous infantry model can make as many supporting attacks as are on its profile, up to a maximum of three, rather than the usual one supporting attack."

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Indeed that is the case, but do you think they should take a Magic Standard, as they can do so?

I don't think so, but I would defer to a more experienced OK general. I don't see an immediate standard that would be worth the extra points (as they are already S6).

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I have always played that PF doesn't affect the second rank as the rules (to me) are clear that they can only ever have one attack.

But this is @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl 's rodeo so he can call the shot on it.

They should only have one attack when initially making the attack roll, but PF attacks come after you've made the hit roll, when you've seen how many dice have come up as 6. I'm going to say PF attacks should be allowed for supporting ranks for this tourney.

In the BRB it says, "A monstrous infantry model can make as many supporting attacks as are on its profile, up to a maximum of three, rather than the usual one supporting attack."

Yes I seem to recall that now you've mentioned it. I'll have to keep that in mind when making my calculations.

 

[Killer Angel]

@NIGHTBRINGER @Lizards of Renown @Killer Angel as fully-fledged Tomb Kings players, what loadout do you think the Ushabti should have? Additional hand weapons would allow them to strike at their decent Initiative of 3, but Great Weapons would help boost their Strength.

GW for me.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

GW for me.

Even with ASL?....

@NIGHTBRINGER you will need to vote to break the stalemate.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@NIGHTBRINGER @Lizards of Renown @Killer Angel as fully-fledged Tomb Kings players, what loadout do you think the Ushabti should have? Additional hand weapons would allow them to strike at their decent Initiative of 3, but Great Weapons would help boost their Strength.

I think the Ushabti should AHW as otherwise they will be striking last and I believe (based on our other ongoing competition) that this will be their undoing...

@NIGHTBRINGER @Killer Angel what do you guys reckon?

GW for me.

Even with ASL?....

@NIGHTBRINGER you will need to vote to break the stalemate.

I've never fielded them with anything but GWs. S6 is too good to pass up. Plus, AHW only effects the front rank, while the GWs affect supporting ranks as well.

That's just me though.

I have always played that PF doesn't affect the second rank as the rules (to me) are clear that they can only ever have one attack.

But this is @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl 's rodeo so he can call the shot on it.

Personally I'm in agreement with @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl , I've always played it that PF could be generated from supporting ranks. To each their own though, I know it was a very hotly contested debate back in the day.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Great Weapons it is for the Ushabti, thanks. Now, the final unit that has a loadout still to be decided is Chaos Ogres. @NIGHTBRINGER, as our resident WoC fan, I’d be interested to hear about your optimum build for this unit.