8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

[Killer Angel]

Ironbreakers (or MoT sword and board Chaos Warriors) would have been an interesting addition to the tournament as they'd be the most defensive infantry unit in the entire competition. The Witch Elves wouldn't have liked going up against either of them.

at a certain point I've talked about ironbreakers, but imo they would suffer the lack of their iconic buffs.
Don't know.... it would be interesting, at the end of the tournament, to set a unit of ironbreakers against the podium.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Ironbreakers (or MoT sword and board Chaos Warriors) would have been an interesting addition to the tournament as they'd be the most defensive infantry unit in the entire competition. The Witch Elves wouldn't have liked going up against either of them.

Does MoT affect parry saves? I'm not sure why MoT sword and board Chaos Warriors is a good mix... surely they get 3+ 6++ either ward save or parry save? As far as I know the parry save doesn't count as a ward save (for instance it doesn't work against missile fire).

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Does MoT affect parry saves? I'm not sure why MoT sword and board Chaos Warriors is a good mix... surely they get 3+ 6++ either ward save or parry save? As far as I know the parry save doesn't count as a ward save (for instance it doesn't work against missile fire).

Mark of Tzeentch gives a 6+ Ward Save. In Warhammer Fantasy you can use any and all saves you have, so MoT Warriors would have a 3+ armour save, a 6+ Ward Save and a 6+ Parry Save, essentially giving them the same durability as the Ironbreakers’ 3+ armour save and 5+ parry save.

at a certain point I've talked about ironbreakers, but imo they would suffer the lack of their iconic buffs.

I don’t know what buffs you’re talking about, Ironbreakers would perform perfectly fine against some units in this tournament with their 3+ armour save and 5+ parry save.

 

[Killer Angel]

I don’t know what buffs you’re talking about, Ironbreakers would perform perfectly fine against some units in this tournament with their 3+ armour save and 5+ parry save.

Usually the build involves a thane and a oathstone... i'm a traditional dwarf, ironbreakers must follow that route.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Mark of Tzeentch gives a 6+ Ward Save. In Warhammer Fantasy you can use any and all saves you have, so MoT Warriors would have a 3+ armour save, a 6+ Ward Save and a 6+ Parry Save, essentially giving them the same durability as the Ironbreakers’ 3+ armour save and 5+ parry save.

You can't have two ward saves and a Parry counts as a ward save.

BRB "Ward Saves": Note that different ward saves cannot be combined to increase a model's chance of saving. If a model has more than one ward save, simply use the best.

BRB "Hand Weapon and Shield": If a warrior is fighting with a hand weapon and shield, then he has a 6+ ward save, representing his chance to parry the blow..."

I just wondered if Mark of Tzeentch affects a parry save throw?

Any data @NIGHTBRINGER ?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

This is one of those instances where Mournfang riders with Great Weapons would have been the better choice, as they don't get any penalty for striking last because they are doing so anyway, they would be wounding the Demigryphs on 2s and they'd reduce their 1+ armour save to a 4+. In the match above according to my calculations that would have caused the units to draw on the first turn, allowing the combat to go on much longer.

They end up doing worse...

Mark of Tzeentch gives a 6+ Ward Save. In Warhammer Fantasy you can use any and all saves you have, so MoT Warriors would have a 3+ armour save, a 6+ Ward Save and a 6+ Parry Save, essentially giving them the same durability as the Ironbreakers’ 3+ armour save and 5+ parry save.

That is not correct. You can only ever use a single Ward Save or Regeneration.

So the best you can ever have is an Armour Save AND one of the following: your best Ward Save OR your best Regeneration Save.

You cannot have multiple ward saves, multiple regeneration saves or even a ward + regeneration save.

You can't have two ward saves and a Parry counts as a ward save.

BRB "Ward Saves": Note that different ward saves cannot be combined to increase a model's chance of saving. If a model has more than one ward save, simply use the best.

BRB "Hand Weapon and Shield": If a warrior is fighting with a hand weapon and shield, then he has a 6+ ward save, representing his chance to parry the blow..."

I just wondered if Mark of Tzeentch affects a parry save throw?

Any data @NIGHTBRINGER ?

The MoT improves the Parry Save to 5+.

The Mark of Tzeentch rule grants you a 6+ ward save, but the rule goes on to state: "If a model with the Mark of Tzeentch already has a ward save, the Mark of Tzeentch improves the ward save by 1 instead (to a maximum of 3+)." [WoC army book, page 24]


As you pointed out, the parry save is a Ward save, and as such, the MoT improves it by 1, to a 5+. If you are not eligible to take a parry save (i.e. stomps), then the MoT simply grants you a 6+ ward save. The MoT's explicit ability to improve upon a pre-existing ward save is the very reason why MoT Chaos lords/heroes can get their ward save down to a 3+.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Matchup time. Skullcrushers of Khorne vs. Witch Elves.

Key rules in play:

• Skullcrushers: Brass Behemoth, Mark of Khorne
• Witch Elves: ASF, Frenzy, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned Attacks

This is how I'm picturing this matchup:

Skullcrusher #1: "Hey Bob, do you see those sexually suggestive scantily clad gyrating female elves over there?"
Skullcrusher #2: "Yeah, Dave"
Skullcrusher #1: "Are you thinking what I'm thinking?"
Skullcrusher #2: "Blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne?"
Skullcrusher #1: "You damn right!!"


On a more serious note, as predicted, Witch Elves don't like 1+ armour. Fun fact, I believe the combat result of 12 achieved by the Skullcrushers is the highest we have seen in the tournament thus far. Easy win for the Skullcrushers.

And with that win, the Skullcrushers leap frog over the Witch Elves into second place. The Witch Elves move into a two way tie for third with their fellow Executioners.




It was about time the Witch Elves finally ran into one of their hard counters. I'd imagine a similar fate awaits them when they face off against the Demigryph Knights and Mournfang Cavalry. Agree, disagree, thoughts?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

That is not correct. You can only ever use a single Ward Save or Regeneration.

That's what I thought.

The MoT improves the Parry Save to 5+.

The Mark of Tzeentch rule grants you a 6+ ward save, but the rule goes on to state: "If a model with the Mark of Tzeentch already has a ward save, the Mark of Tzeentch improves the ward save by 1 instead (to a maximum of 3+)." [WoC army book, page 24]

As you pointed out, the parry save is a Ward save, and as such, the MoT improves it by 1, to a 5+. If you are not eligible to take a parry save (i.e. stomps), then the MoT simply grants you a 6+ ward save. The MoT's explicit ability to improve upon a pre-existing ward save is the very reason why MoT Chaos Warriors can get their ward save down to a 3+.

How do MoT Chaos Warriors get their ward save to a 3+? They only get a 6++ save right? Unless they are sword and board at which point (fair enough) it becomes a 5++

Not sure what I'm missing here...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

That's what I thought.



How do MoT Chaos Warriors get their ward save to a 3+? They only get a 6++ save right? Unless they are sword and board at which point (fair enough) it becomes a 5++

Not sure what I'm missing here...

You're not missing anything, it should have read as Chaos "lords/heroes" and not warriors. Just a simple writing/typing error on my part, I've corrected it in my original post, thank you for bringing it to my attention. A unit of Chaos Warriors can do no better than a 5++ while a WoC character can get all way down to a 3++ re-rolling 1's (a.k.a. Hortennse).

 

[Lizards of Renown]

You're not missing anything, it should have read as Chaos "lords/heroes" and not warriors. Just a simple writing/typing error on my part, I've corrected it in my original post, thank you for bringing it to my attention. A unit of Chaos Warriors can do no better than a 5++ while a WoC character can get all way down to a 3++ re-rolling 1's (a.k.a. Hortennse).

Phew! That was a definite "brown trousers" moment as I know that you are very familiar with the WoC army and I thought you knew a special rule!!!!

That Lord build is... invincible. Scratch the idea of doing a Lord vs Lord match-up. I guarantee No 1 is right there.

Unbelievable.

So I guess one of the Magic items that gives a 4++, then MoT?

This is probably the ne-plus-ultra of the WoC being OP...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Phew! That was a definite "brown trousers" moment as I know that you are very familiar with the WoC army and I thought you knew a special rule!!!!

Interestingly, there was such a build, but it died back in 7th edition where it was possible to create a unit of Chosen (boosted by a couple of Chaos warshrines) with a 3++ and stubborn. It wouldn't have the 3++ / stubborn to start, but with the right magic item, a couple of shrines and the right strategy it was highly achievable with regularity. I used to joke that it had a special rule "Immune to Warhammer".

That Lord build is... invincible. Scratch the idea of doing a Lord vs Lord match-up. I guarantee No 1 is right there.

Unbelievable.

I said as much. It is, as far as I know, the single most defensive build in the game. Imagine doing a math-hammer match against a model with a re-rollable 1+ and a 3++ re-rolling 1's. And he can heal himself!

So I guess one of the Magic items that gives a 4++, then MoT?

Yup.

Talisman of Preservation (or if the ToP is unavailable, Armour of Destiny) + Mark of Tzeentch + Third Eye of Tzeentch (then you add in the Soul Feeder for self healing).

This is probably the ne-plus-ultra of the WoC being OP...

Most of the focus was placed on the Daemon Prince, but in many respects (with some notable exceptions) the Hortennse lord is even better.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Interestingly, there was such a build, but it died back in 7th edition where it was possible to create a unit of Chosen (boosted by a couple of Chaos warshrines) with a 3++ and stubborn. It wouldn't have the 3++ / stubborn to start, but with the right magic item, a couple of shrines and the right strategy it was highly achievable with regularity. I used to joke that it had a special rule "Immune to Warhammer".


I said as much. It is, as far as I know, the single most defensive build in the game. Imagine doing a math-hammer match against a model with a re-rollable 1+ and a 3++ re-rolling 1's. And he can heal himself!


Yup.

Talisman of Preservation (or if the ToP is unavailable, Armour of Destiny) + Mark of Tzeentch + Third Eye of Tzeentch (then you add in the Soul Feeder for self healing).


Most of the focus was placed on the Daemon Prince, but in many respects (with some notable exceptions) the Hortennse lord is even better.

That is a sickeningly powerful character.

 

[Killer Angel]

It was about time the Witch Elves finally ran into one of their hard counters. I'd imagine a similar fate awaits them when they face off against the Demigryph Knights and Mournfang Cavalry. Agree, disagree, thoughts?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

This fills me with happiness for 2 reasons.

1 - i gave my vote to Skullcrushers. Alas, they are not going to win, but i'd like to see them at least in the podium.
2 - witch elves

 

[Imrahil]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

This fills me with happiness for 2 reasons.

1 - i gave my vote to Skullcrushers. Alas, they are not going to win, but i'd like to see them at least in the podium.
2 - witch elves

This hurts my vote a bit....
As foretold by @NIGHTBRINGER and @Lizards of Renown a massive loss for the Witch Elves.

The massive 50 attacks only got 3.7 wounds through

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

That is a sickeningly powerful character.

As is proper for those blessed by Chaos!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

This fills me with happiness for 2 reasons.

1 - i gave my vote to Skullcrushers. Alas, they are not going to win, but i'd like to see them at least in the podium.
2 - witch elves

So both White Lions and Witch Elves seem to be hated! Who will you cheer for when they face off with one another?


As for the podium finish, it's definitely still a possibility for the Skullcrushers, but it will be a long and hard road. Those two positions are going to be very tightly contested!

This hurts my vote a bit....
As foretold by @NIGHTBRINGER and @Lizards of Renown a massive loss for the Witch Elves.

The massive 50 attacks only got 3.7 wounds through

And we should see that pattern largely repeated in the Demigryph and Mournfang matchups! They are definitely still contenders though and those losses were factored in. Every unit has particular counter, no free rides here!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Match time. Light against dark. Elves against Elves. White Lions of Chrace versus Black Guard of Naggarond.

Key rules in play:

• White Lions: Martial Prowess, Stubborn, ASF and ASL cancel each other out
• Black Guard: ASF, Murderous Prowess, Stubborn

Well that was an absolute beating. The Black Guard are tailor made to beat such a unit. They strike first, have an extra attack, and re-roll to hit. They also wound at nearly the same proficiency despite their strength disparity. Bottom line for the White Lions, its never a good sign when half your unit evaporates before you've even had the chance to strike.



For all the White Lion haters out there, was that an enjoyable match? The White Lions have steadily been sinking in the rankings, while the Black Guard find themselves in the middle of the pack once again. Will that those trends continue? (personally I think the White Lions are going to finish near the bottom of the list, although they still get to beat up on the Skullcrushers before then).

 

[Killer Angel]

So both White Lions and Witch Elves seem to be hated! Who will you cheer for when they face off with one another?

I will cheer for a meteor striking the battlefield.

Well, in reality i will cheer for the lions, but i doubt they're gonna make it.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Match time. Light against dark. Elves against Elves. White Lions of Chrace versus Black Guard of Naggarond.

Key rules in play:

• White Lions: Martial Prowess, Stubborn, ASF and ASL cancel each other out
• Black Guard: ASF, Murderous Prowess, Stubborn

View attachment 82367

Well that was an absolute beating. The Black Guard are tailor made to beat such a unit. They strike first, have an extra attack, and re-roll to hit. They also wound at nearly the same proficiency despite their strength disparity. Bottom line for the White Lions, its never a good sign when half your unit evaporates before you've even had the chance to strike.

View attachment 82369

For all the White Lion haters out there, was that an enjoyable match? The White Lions have steadily been sinking in the rankings, while the Black Guard find themselves in the middle of the pack once again. Will that those trends continue? (personally I think the White Lions are going to finish near the bottom of the list, although they still get to beat up on the Skullcrushers before then).

Now, THIS was satisfying.

No quibbles, just a straight-up, total beating.

For this fight alone, I'm glad that I made sure the Dark Elves were represented on the list. I think that the Witch Elves will have a similar result, but I think that the White Lions will beat the Executioners.

I think that the Witch Elves will end up at #3 once all is said and done, with the Black Guard close behind them.

 

[Imrahil]

I think that the Witch Elves will end up at #3 once all is said and done, with the Black Guard close behind them.

So the Exicutioners will drop some places?
What match-ups (left) that favor the Black Guard? And what match-ups will Break the Exicutioners?

There is currently a four Point gap... With still 9 match-ups to go ... Ok, seems possible

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I will cheer for a meteor striking the battlefield.

Well, in reality i will cheer for the lions, but i doubt they're gonna make it.

So the Witch Elves are even more hated than the White Lions?!? This is a stunning revelation.

And you are correct, the Witch Elves will absolutely obliterate the White Lions. No contest there.

Now, THIS was satisfying.

For this fight alone, I'm glad that I made sure the Dark Elves were represented on the list. I think that the Witch Elves will have a similar result, but I think that the White Lions will beat the Executioners.

It will be such an easy win for the Witch Elves. Against the Executioners it will be a lot more interesting, since they are so very similar. The White Lions get to fight in an extra rank but will be outnumbered and wound slightly less efficiently.

I think that the Witch Elves will end up at #3 once all is said and done, with the Black Guard close behind them.

So who do you have in the #2 spot?

So the Exicutioners will drop some places?
What match-ups (left) that favor the Black Guard? And what match-ups will Break the Exicutioners?

There is currently a four Point gap... With still 9 match-ups to go ... Ok, seems possible

Grrr, Imrahil

Personally I don't see the Black Guard moving up in the final standings. While they do have a few good matchups left (Executioners, possibly the Witch Elves) they also have some really bad ones (K'daai Destroyer, Demigryph Knights, Beasts of Nurgle).

I think the Executioners will finish lower than they currently are. They have some very hard fights ahead of them:

• K'daai Destroyer
• Black Guard
• Witch Elves
• Beasts of Nurgle