7th Ed. "the battle is won in the movement phase"

[strewart]

Sorry, don't know any mac programs. Do the windows ones not work? Good luck, I struggled enough finding working windows ones...

Anyway, I have finally got around to discussing my deployment for my HE army and got carried away and went somewhat into the movement and rest of the battle.

Here is my list: (rather than mentioning the magic items, I will just say what they do)

High Elf Noble, general, 2+ armour save, immune to fire, MR1, great weapon

High Elf Noble, BSB, 4+ ward, great weapon

Mage, 2 scrolls

19 spearmen, full command (BSB goes here)

20 spearmen

17 Phoenix Guard, full command (general goes here)

8 Dragon Princes, full command, warbanner

6 reavers, musician

Lion Chariot

Tiranoc Chariot

2 bolt throwers

eagle

Note, it is a 6'x4' table so each square is a foot, or 12". The terrain isn't quite to scale, hard to figure out, its probably a bit smaller, especially the bottom right woods. The round things are craters, difficult terrain that doesn't block LoS.



PG = Phoenix Guard
SM/ = Spearmen with character
S = Spearmen
LC = Lion chariot
TC = Tiranoc chariot
BT1/2 = bolt throwers
E = eagle
M (the tiny one) = mage
R = reavers

I generally deploy the Dragon princes, phoenix guard, and spearmen with character first since they will basically always form my strong centre, and always with a big enough gap between them for the chariots to fit wherever needed based on what they are directly facing. If my opponent seems to be doing something sneaky, the eagle comes out early as a cheap deployment, it is fast enough to be place basically anywhere and still get where it needs to go. The reavers usually take a flank, and with 18" march/charge and always strike first they can usually control the flank.

The spearmen are an interesting one, while they are the weakest unit in my army they still have the strong potential to take on a lot of units and if not when then at least survive with ASF and 3 ranks of spears. I often deploy them late as well and if my opponent has a lot of flankers, they either line up behind the reavers or on the opposite flank as required, or they sit toward the outside of the centre as they are in the picture and angle outward when they are about halfway up the board to protect the flanks of my centre, or they can angle inwards and threaten flanks if the opponent is moving fast. NOBODY wants 20 spearmen hitting their flank.

Throughout deployment I also have to be careful to make sure the bolt throwers have decent LoS. I will often plan out where I want them to go or what I want them to shoot at (thus deploy opposite it) before putting down my first unit, there is nothing worse than strangling your own battle line trying to give LoS to a warmachine. In this deployment, one BT is behind a piece of terrain that it can see over (remember, talk to your opponents about what each piece of terrain counts as before starting ) and since it is off to the side of my main line, it can see diagonally across the board and should have a good line of sight for most of the battle. It can also support the reavers if their opponent is tough, and it is well protected.

The second bolt thrower is basically in the centre of my line. Most people get surprised when I do this, it will have an extremely narrow LoS to basically what is directly ahead of it onless the DP shuffle over, which they can. But a BT is never going to destroy a unit and if it is a giant or something then it has well and truly earnt its points if it kills it, so I don't mind that it can only see 1 unit. There will be combat everywhere by turn 3 anyway. Plus with warmachines deploying last, the hunters of the opponent are already out and usually on the flanks, epecially when they see what is at the centre of my army, so it is usually pretty safe.

The other place for it is right out on a flank, it can usually see diagonally to several targets and it can clean up the support units nicely.

Finally, the mage. He is a scroll cady, and I only take him because I have to stop at least some of the magic in the first turn or two before I am in combat. He heads straight for woods if he can, or if they don't look safe he hangs out behind my army and moves up with them for protection with the possibility of jumping into a spear unit. He throws shielf of saphery (5 to cast) on 1 dice, if it works bonus, if it eats DD bonus, then throws drain magic on 2 dice. This sometimes gets irresistable and quite annoys my opponents.

So how does it work? It is a very very offensive army, the bolt throwers soften a few units or try to destroy the odd monster or heavy cavalry while the army moves forward as a block at once, with the chariots hanging back an inch or two to protect them from magic, shooting and stray charges. Normally, you try to manouvre yourself so you are just outside their charge range and they have to move forward and allow you to charge. This army is a little bit different; most of my army is better if it gets charged, with the exception of the dragon princes and chariots. You charge my spears, instead of getting 10 attacks first from charging you I get 15 attacks first.

The Phoenix Guard don't care either way except if they get charged, there is usually a chariot ready to counter charge and hit hard. The naked spearmen unit and 2 chariots are really the main support to the army, the dragon princes very rarely need help and with a 16" charge they can sometimes be in combat turn 1 if my opponent went first, or usually turn 2 and often punch right through whatever they charge. Even in a drawn out combat, I get +1 warbanner and a whopping 19 attacks including the horses so they usually stick around with their high leadership and 2+ armour until support arrives.

The Phoenix Guard are equally tough with 4+ wards, the general and his s6 attacks, BSB usually nearby, s4 going first and fear causing. Very little causes them to break unless I roll poorly, and they are very well supported by the multiple high strength attacks and fear causing from the lion chariot to add numbers and often cause a beaten and outnumbered by fear result for the opponent.

The BSB unit is also pretty hard to break, especially with the tiranoc chariot hanging around helping and the support spears usually nearby protecting flanks and often providing a flank charge. The army relies upon decent speed and hard hitting combat power backed up by support units to swing the combats my way.

Also, if the reavers do well on their flank with such a high speed they are very quickly able to reach the main line and offer flank charges of their own with ok s4 attacks and the ability to negate rank bonuses, they have more than once saved one of my units. On occasions when the battle is going poorly and some of my centre is breaking and fleeing, the opponent can find his confident chasing units with some reavers up the rear and with 3d6 pursuit they have on occasion managed to destroy whole orc units from behind and give my line a chance to rally and turn around.

The eagle has plenty of uses of course depending on the opponent. It can just fly up next to a unit and march block it to make it reach me slower, it can harass warmachines, it really like chewing the necromancers off the back of corpse carts, and if I am desperate it can perform a rear charge. It will do nothing for static combat res but provide a kill or two and of course has a 3d6 pursuit to increase my chances of destroying the unit when it flees.

I think that about covers it, I hope it was useful to some. Remember, I designed this list about 2 years ago and have used the same list over and over again which has given me a fantastic guage for what each unit is capable of, what matchups are good or bad, how I should deploy in different situations and with different terrain, and what to do with the army when it is out there. Before these guys I did what I think most people do and change lists all the time, even if it was only subtle changes. I strongly believe that an infallible grasp of exactly what is in your army and what you want it to do goes a long way toward winning a battle, familiarity with the units helps a lot. If you find a list you really like, stick with it. The first half dozen or so battles were all loses, some quite heavy, but now they are enjoying a very healthy winning ratio and have even enacted massacres over the likes of VC. Of course there are still loses as well, battles against Dark Elves are always very bloody and the last one on the weekend resulted in what looked like a fairly significant loss but in the end I came back and only lost by a bit.


Edit: Lets make this a tiny bit longer... For those who went through and actually read it all, I know that tactics for HE and LM are quite different so this won't directly apply to LM armies. Try to think more about the thought process I have used, and the logic in what the units will do as well as how the army works as one and supports each other. This applies to every army

 

[commonman]

The problem i see with deployment of an even spread on a wide front, you are looking for a straight up fight of units smashing into one another straight across the board. This aso depends if you do hidden set-up (blinds across table) or in front of each other. In the long run with elite smaller armies that have the space to move and set-up, a heavey single side is better by far. A larger army as in orcs against a smaller army like dwarfs are at a extreme disadvantage to this as they will not physically have the room to deploy on a single side. With the slow walking speed of foot troopers, the men on the far side of a 6 foot table will take no part in the battle or be behind others that are fighting. You can then use your skirmishers/fliers to make sure they walk not march to ya. In this way to can take apart his army with quality troops as his quantity never comes to bear.

The movement phase is also won by picking your battles on the table, retreating if needed. Retreating is also a great way to screw up his "carefully deployed" spread out army line. Sending some units in different directions and generally having him react to you, not you to him.

 

[lupercal]

one thing i have noticed is that having more units is always a good thing for set-up, with more units it makes it so your opponent doesn't just set up straight across from you

because if he does then you have a few units that you can place, after he is done setting up which makes him have to account for them with movement, instead of set-up, or preferably he doesn't and you can fully maximise them

that is the basic flaw of chaos in particular, you place your tough units he places his to counter then you position your excess units to maxim effect since they can't match units with you

this is obviously easier done with armies like empire or O@G but can still be done with lizards, to a lesser extent, another good strategy is to feint with units on the set up, start placing your skinks and obvious flank units first, and when he positions his army where he thinks your main force will be you continue to fortify the flanks and work towards a full flank or double envelopment, once again maximizing your set-up

 

[Thebestlazyguy]

thats a good point, but sadly the lizardmen army is not one which often outnumbers the opponent. that makes this harder or near impossible for us, except for against a few armies

 

[strewart]

We easily have the potential to outnumber.... 10 man skink units are only 60 points, you could have 5-6 of them and not even have too much of a dent in your overall points, your opponent could almost be finished deploying before you actually start putting units down. You want to control the deployment phase? You can.

BTW, for those who do not think my battleplan post above is effective, well I am talking from lots of experience and I can say it works for me. If the style doesn't duit you, then that is fair enough, everyone plays the game differently and has differnet opponents.

 

[Barotok]

I can definitely see how your deployment can be very effective. I also agree that its much easier to outnumber these days than it was back in say, 6th edition? Again, with cheap skink units you can toss several out on the board for very little cost and force your opponent to drop something that you want to counter in a specific way. The challenge then becomes making sure that you have the deployment area cleared to correctly counter those units. I know there are a lot of naysayers who will read this and probably disagree because ranked skinks are useless. But I've found them to be an advantage in deployement and movement in big ways. If I can use a 50 point unit of ranked skinks to get an expensive enemy unit out of position or distract it for a turn, I see those points as well spent. They aren't there to win combat, they're there to clog up the movement area of the board for the enemy and to slow down deployment of my key units.

 

[strewart]

I would probably lean toward skirmishers due to their higher manouvrability, they can get out of the way faster or redeploy if needed. But even the ranked ones are fast and can threaten flanks. I know the stats and that a lot of the time they will lose more wounds than the static combat res they create, but it is a big psychological thing. No one wants a ranked 10 man unit hitting their flank or rear.

 

[Dreadgrass]

Hey all, love the topic!

One thing I find handy with my list (mixed Saurus and skinks infantry based) is to deploy either cohorts or skirmishers right on the front line in the middle of my deployment zone, using 2 - 3 deployments, this way, not only are they in a prime redirecting/ shielding position but it lets me see the opponents deployments before I deploy anything substancial.

Generaly speaking my Saurus are deployed behind this screen but if from what I can tell by the enemies deployment that won't be the best idea I can deploy the saurus for a refused flank or other alternative and the skinks are generally fast enough to re-deploy in my 1st turn.

Also handy to throw regular opponents, or players who have watched your previous game for a loop as they could most likely presume your using the same tactic as previously and deploy with that in mind, only toi suddenly find themselves right out of position when you drop all those blocks on the opposite end of the field to their Heavy cav/ elite Infantry!

 

[strewart]

Thats a pretty cool idea, nice.

It also adresses a small fact that a lot of people neglect or do not think is viable. It is often ok to deploy one unit directly behind another. A lot of people see this as a bad move since it effectively puts a unit out of action for a while, and certainly it is bad for things like chariots out the front if they flee. Some horde armies like Skaven or even empire with a few detachments often run out of room as well and need to deploy some stuff behind.

For LM who have great leadership and will probably pass a panic check if a unit flees through them, it can be good. Also putting the faster moving skinks right in front of saurus can also be good because the skinks can very easily get out of the way, especially if they skirmish.

In my HE army described above, I have on occasion put the spearmen behind the dragon princes since the DP always charge on turn 2, or occasionally on turn 1 even and can leave a hole in my line. Not so if the spears are right there behind. Chariots can be good there as well, since they are safe from shooting and magic early and usually hit with the 'second wave' infantry rather than the first wave DP.