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7th Ed. "the battle is won in the movement phase"

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Thebestlazyguy

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i have heard this phrase so many times that... well ive heard it alot

just exactly does this mean for the Lizardmen? how can this be true for us?

basically what im asking for here is a discussion on movement related tactics for the lizardmen, because everyone know to march block with terries, and to harass with skinks, but what does it mean for the larger army in general, and how can we, the noble Lizardmen adapt to the ever changing conditions of war?

because lets face it, do battles always go the way we want them to? does deployment always have the affect that it should? so the leading question is here, what to do in tough situations

now i know this is a wide and very general question, but i think this could answer a lot of questions for the newer guys (like myself) on how to really move the lizardmen, and get everything to... to work together.

any suggestions on movement related tactics are welcome, whether it's setting up for an attack, or positioning so you're out of sight of a gun/cannon, everything is welcome.
 
I'd like to see the replies on this post. I'm a new player myself.
 
I've read this thread and... Wow, it is a huge question. I am thinking about it, also interested to see what other people say.

Though I will hazard to push one further, and say half the battle is won in list selection and deployment. Now of course deployment directly effects how your movement phase will work because most units cannot quickly redeploy to other parts of the board if they need to so a good deployment is pretty crucial.

It is also going to be radically different depending on what style army you have. Magic, saurus/carnosaur or all skink will all deploy differently and aim to do different things on the battlefield.

In general as a tip, I will say I always aim to have at least two units working together unless it is a hammer that should win on its own (COKs) or a bunker that ain't going anywhere (swarms or TG with slann). A support unit can greatly throw a combat in your favour. This also means selecting your targets carefully and trying to get good unit matchups with your army vs theirs, which occurs mostly in the deployment phase.

It is very hard to put on paper all the things you consider. I'll have to think about it some more, hopefully this has given a bit of a platform for the topic to get started.

Great question btw.
 
so you brought up a good point on deployment and i agree that this is equally important to the movement phase. that said id like to ask about a tactic ive heard of called the "refused flank"

clearly this should be self explanatory, i would just like to understand how it works, and how you would typically advance an army that is set up in this style
 
Thebestlazyguy said:
so you brought up a good point on deployment and i agree that this is equally important to the movement phase. that said id like to ask about a tactic ive heard of called the "refused flank"

clearly this should be self explanatory, i would just like to understand how it works, and how you would typically advance an army that is set up in this style
Click to expand...

Basically you pick a board edge and start putting down your solid anvil units. Start with something like Saurus, which fight well to their front but have trouble when getting flanked. The board edge denies the opponent the ability to flank them on that side. Then you start laying down other solid units, maybe interspersing your support units as necessary. Typically the hammer units will deploy wide and sweep across the field into the flank of the opponent's army. Army composition is obviously a huge factor before considering this approach. I know that playing with dwarves, I used this strategy to help hold the line since dwarves have all anvil units and no hammers. I put the stubborn unit of hammerers with fear and terror immunity (lizardmen could use temple guard) out on the exposed flank. Since stubborn units don't necessarily care about getting flanked as much, it makes a good unit to put on the exposed flank. I haven't really given it much thought with regards to lizardmen, I plan on making a lizard army that functions quite differently and is more mobile and less infantry based.

I agree this is a great topic, but I know that if I get rambling I'll churn out a text wall of doom, so I'll comment on specific facets as I find time.

Deployment is a good way to start it out, and strategically outdeploying your opponent is a way to really give yourself an early edge before the first unit even moves an inch.
 
It depends.

For my Skinky army of doom - it doesn't matter really, M6, Skirmishers etc. means I can quickly adapt and chang to battlefield conditions.

for my Saurus Warriors I win or lose based on how I get redirected, Blocked etc. So it really does difffer depending on units used and list selection.
 
something that is not the deployment itself but relates to it is the fact that if you can choose who should set up first, then choose your enemy. this allows you to start to react to you opponent before the game starts. now i know people disagree with this, so here is my answer, your battle plan should depend on where your opponent places his units: does he have lots of fast cav? then try to deny him flanks. where are his ranged threats? do you need to screen? do have to hide your Stegadon? these are questions that you have to ask yourself as you are deploying, and if he places before you can answer some of these questions before you place.
 
Yeah I generally prefer to deploy second if I get the choice, to make sure the matchups across the board are the ones I want and especially if we have equal or I have more units than the opponent so you still have lots deploying after he is finished, allows you to spring a few surprises.

However, I still think you should have a bit of a plan in mind for how you want to deploy and only react minimally to the opponent. Cut out some small bits of paper with unit markings on it and try them in different arrangements to see what you like. If you don't have some kind of a plan, you will often get to the end and the last few units and either have no space for them or think 'gee, I really would have liked this unit to go right where that other one is already placed...' which is always frustrating. In fact there have been one or two times where I have seriously considered conceeding before the end of deployment and starting deployment again.

Would it be helpful if some people threw out a few of the lists they use and a little diagram or description of how they often find themselves deploying and why?
 
yeah i think that would be great. so far out of three games ive lost 3 and won none, most of my errors being in either deployment or in movement. other things like being shot at and flanked are direct results of that, so tips on deployment would be a must in my case

it would be nice if everyone could discuss their deployment tactics and how useful they have been, although if at all possible, diagrams would be great, as some of us have a hard time visualizing strategies.

is it mutually agreed that a basic but good way to start deployment is with strong units like saurus on the center line, with faster units on the flanks due to their greater mobility?
 
Yeah that is a fairly common battle setup. You have a strong centre which is bolstered by the general's leadership and possibly a BSB, always make sure they cover as many units as they can, and fast units to go up the flank. Fliers can be placed pretty much anywhere as long as you don't expose them to too much shooting or magic in the first turn, and you want them to move quickly but safely behind enemy lines.

I think I will do a deployment diagram for my High Elf army if that is ok since I am much more comfortable with them at the moment having used exactly the same list for the last year or two, might add LM later.
 
yeah no problem. the basic idea of this is to help familiarize with movement and deployment, so really anything will do.

idk about everyone else, but i think its really easy to underestamate the importance of the movement phase. or maybe for some, the tactical skills required just aren't present or even for some like me, they just go over my head, and i cant get a grip on the idea.

so lets say (and i'm sorry that all my battle references are to dwarves, but i think several of you understand that my playing conditions are not optimal) the opponent deploys as such, with all his gunners and cannons on the hill that he placed in his deployment zone, and the entire rest of his force in front of said gunners and cannons

how am i supposed to reach the cannons? can flying units choose to fly over top of the enemy unit? or do i have to find some way around? this said, is it harder for cannons to hit flying units? because i just dont see a cannon being able to aim at and hit a flying target with ease. possibly im being to literal for a fantasy based game though.
 
I just went searching for a battle report program to make posting diagrams of deployment easierand hit a few dead links. These two stood out to me though:
http://www.battlechronicler.com/download/
http://battlereports.net/player.html

Unfortunately, since both need to be installed on your comp and I am at uni and do not have sufficient permission to install programs on my office computer, I will have to wait until I get home before testing them. Which is ok since I probably should be working now anyway. :P

the opponent deploys as such, with all his gunners and cannons on the hill that he placed in his deployment zone, and the entire rest of his force in front of said gunners and cannons
Click to expand...

First of all, deploying like that he is giving himself a massive advantage and really stunting (sorry for the Dwarf pun) a lot of the game, especially playing against a new player. When my group first started we put hills in the deployment zoneas well, but really they just ruin half the challenge of the game. Now his deployment is brainless since he has absolutely no concern about blocking the LoS of warmachines with his army, and he has a very well defended fortress. I suggest you leave the hills out for a few games, if he doesn't agree at least restrict him to 1 unit on the hill or follow the random terrain generation in the main rulebook, since the chances of a hill are low. Another interesting idea is to have one person place all the terrain while the other person may choose which side they have, this makes it all pretty even and fair.

Anyway, yes terradons can fly over enemy units. They are also just as easy to shoot, in the game mechanics the flying units actually land at the end of each flight which is why they can't hover over woods and must walk into them, it is a ibt strange but oh well. Given that cannons fire in a thin straight line, you could imagine that the terradons are a bit harder to hit since it is very easy to position them so he can only kill 1 of them not several like a ranked up unit.

I believe there is a lore of life spell that is especially designed to hurt models on hills called master of stone. Bring a Slann and throw some s6 hits his way. ;) The rain lord will also be a very useful spell. Since they are on a hill they can easily be seen from anywhere too for you to shoot them or target with spells. Just for fun, throw out howler wind at the end of your phase too.
 
Also if he is clustered up all around one hill... Comet of Cassandora might serve you well!

Skinks will help, but will be mowed down by his handgunners and crossbowmen. The thing to do is screen your Terradons first turn, and on the second turn fly over his handgunners and hit them with drop rocks. Then the terradons can pelt things with javelins. Also of note, NONE of the dwarf shooters.. crossbows or handgunners, can move and fire. This means, if you land terradons behind a line of shooters, they can't do a thing about it. They can then either waste a whole turn reforming to face the Terradons (in which case you can just fly them off somewhere else) OR he will keep his back turned to you and you can rear charge the gunners with your terradons. The odds really are pretty decent in your favor. Just never allow your Terradons to land where the Organ Gun can draw LOS.

The Organ Gun and its cursed auto-hits! As far as how to kill it... land the terradons in a nearby forest or somewhere else out of LOS. Then fly over and pelt it with your rocks and then your javelins and PRAY that you kill the crew. It really is the target of priority when facing entrenched dwarves, as it can wipe out ANYTHING in short order.

Really it's a question of unfair terrain advantage. It would be more interesting if you were able to place a forest wherever you wanted if he got to put a mountain always in his deployment zone.
 
If you want to learn how the game relay works play a mate and use only averages.

Take the luck factor out of the game and it all most becomes chess. It will all come down to how the units move and what you do to maximize the unit-unit match ups or unit combination's.

If you do this you also have to consider the averages over time. LD for example will fail 1/3 times so on the 3rd turn you will break otherwise you will always pass a LD test.
 
anvil units and no hammers.
Click to expand...

Dwarves have only ONE anvil per army, but they've got plenty of hammerers


People I play against have learned to fear and understand "the mitten" I have decided concepts like these are worth noting in a seperate tactica.
 
rofl donkey he means anvil as in the "hammer and anvil" tactic
 
strewart said:
I just went searching for a battle report program to make posting diagrams of deployment easierand hit a few dead links. These two stood out to me though:
http://www.battlechronicler.com/download/
http://battlereports.net/player.html
Click to expand...

I've checked both these out now, and the first one looks pretty good. The second seems to be a viewer for already made battle reports. The first gives you the options to choose board size, put terrain anywhere, name the units, define their size to scale.. Basically looks great for making full battle reports or just showing a few units for tactics or whatever. Plus you can store your army in there to bring it up later and make a new deployment or report.

Hopefully tonight I will have time to put my HE army in there and write about about deployment, which will also include where they plan to move during the battle.
 
http://www.geocities.com/med70085/militaryhistory_main_battlereports.htm

this is the site of strategies (old edition though) for our beautiful lizardmen, just look at the battle reports, the strategies, the pictures....shame about his dissapearance though
 
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