8th Ed. The "5lann"

[T_Saurus]

Hello all, I am a new member here but I was hoping to share the topic of my latest LM build - the "5lann" (That is a 5 not an S).

What is the 5lann?
The 5lann is a Slann using the Wandering Deliberations discipline and the Book of Ashur.

Sounds neat? What about it?
Well my build revolves around synergy between the 5lann and Tetto'eko's special ability allowing for reroll of 1s duing casting attempts.

Master of Trickle casting.
So I spent a considerable amount of time crunching numbers (I don't have a huge background in mathematics but I have a BSc in Chem/Bio and have taken Statistics and Probability in University) on how this 5lann will be able to cast coupled with Tetto'eko.

So I will be sharing my numbers (The whole calculations I have on Excel if anyone is interested in reading/examining my math.)



So based on the calculations the 5lann can reliably (>77%) cast 6 of the 8 spells (non-boosted using 1 dice. With 2 dice there are only 4 ranks of spells he is unable to cast reliably.

So this is a post to hopefully open up discussion. Let me know your thoughts. It is a heavy points investment into magic and I would still want to be using the dispell scroll and cube of darkness in my list so 2500+ points to use seems reasonable. You can definitely use it at 2k but then it is costly. Anyways again, let me know what you think!

Cheers,
T Saurus

Edit: Picture has been re-added open in a new tab if you want to see it in full size.

Edit2: Edit for 5lann

 

[Ondjage]

Re: The "5laan"

I like the idea of risky, cheap casting with your slann, and a backup to use your power dice with teto'ekko should you roll a 2 with the slann.

i wouldn't go with two additional priests for scroll and cube with this build, simply because that is way too many points for the (very unreliable) magic phase. I'd rather get becalming cogitation for magical defense.

 

[T_Saurus]

Re: The "5laan"

I was definitely thinking the same thing but no one wants a Psun wrecking them when they had the opportunity to scroll it. And a skink with dispell scroll is not all that much more expensive than adding the discipline and allows for some more active play using arcane vassal with the 4 mm/dd spells available.

It appears my image is not working in the OP but I can't tell if that is just because I am on my phone at the moment.

 

[VampTeddy]

Re: The "5laan"

Hey all,

I had tried to post this topic earlier today but I don't think it went through so here I go again.

This thread is being created to discuss the idea of what I call the "5laan" That is a "5" not an "s". Ok, great it has a name but what is it?

My build for my 5laan has Wandering Deliberations and...the Book of Ashur for a +5 to cast/dispell along with BSB and +1 Ld banner.

Great, your expensive caster is more expensive so what?
Thanks for asking! The beautiful idea behind the 5laan is by incorporating Tetto'eko and his wonderful Herald of Cosmic Events special rule. Making him an amazing trickle caster. Being able to cast 6/8 of the spells with a greater than 75% chance with a single dice looks very appealing to me.

I spent a bit of time crunching numbers on the 5laan and I feel that it has the potential to be a very powerful build. To share my efforts here is the summation of the probability to cast various level spells with and without Tetto'eko's HoCE rule.



The cost of the 5laan and Tetto'eko (And I would like to include the Dispell Scroll/Cube of Darkness) is quite a lot to spend on Magic and a lot of people wouldn't like to pay the price I am sure but for 2500 points it could be something to look at.

Let me know what you think about it, I haven't had a chance to try it out in person yet and as I don't yet own a Tetto'eko model I may be fielding it without him in an up coming 3 game tournament.

Seems to me it's going to have more to say if you're after the boosted version of spells (which you'll often be, don't misunderstand me ) so if you're only going for the first notch, and find you doing that mostly, tetto isn't needed.

the book of ashur / wandering deliberation slann in his glory has been discussed before, even how to minmax him have been discussed before, and he didn't get a specific name before. So you've managed to name him at least, and i do believe the tetto idea wasn't mentioned a lot in that thread, though the engine was.

I don't think i'd personally invest in Tetto for this, but settle for the Engine instead, there's no way i'd use all 16 spells, investing 185 pts in vanguard movements and rerolling magic dice might be worth it to some, not to me though since i'd much rather cast with my +5 wiz than my +2.

Also your pic isn't working.

 

[MarchoftheStegs]

Re: The "5laan"

Been there done that bought the postcard.


He is useful but he never lives up to his billing. Yes he can cast a lot of spells but you only get through 1-2 on average ohh and if they have a dragonbane gem you literally cannot hurt them.

 

[Sleboda]

Re: The "5laan"

Great work, and maybe you factored this in, but the idea of single-die casting is terrifying to me.

It a one third chance to fail and then you are done casting. Yes, you can re-roll 1's, but you still fail one sixth of the time straight up on a 2 and even if you re-roll a 1, you still fail a third of your re-rolled rolls.

Trying to get 6+ spells to go off this way is trusting in a luck chain that has nothing but weak links.

 

[T_Saurus]

Re: The "5laan"

Great work, and maybe you factored this in, but the idea of single-die casting is terrifying to me.

It a one third chance to fail and then you are done casting. Yes, you can re-roll 1's, but you still fail one sixth of the time straight up on a 2 and even if you re-roll a 1, you still fail a third of your re-rolled rolls.

Trying to get 6+ spells to go off this way is trusting in a luck chain that has nothing but weak links.

My intention with this build is certainly not to try casting every spell on 1 dice. I expect a magic phase to have several priority spells that I'd like to cast that I would aim to 2 dice cast with leftover dice going towards single dice casts.

As for the dragon bane or helm there is still the chance to spirit leech those targets or hit them with the multitude of hexes available

 

[Scalenex]

I like the idea. I don't like the idea of spelling it 5laan when it should be 5lann. See aloof god-like toads have one "a" and two "n"s. Nauseating, disturbing hermaphroditic daemons have two "a"s and one "n".

 

[T_Saurus]

I like the idea. I don't like the idea of spelling it 5laan when it should be 5lann. See aloof god-like toads have one "a" and two "n"s. Nauseating, disturbing hermaphroditic daemons have two "a"s and one "n".

Oh dear I am embarassed. Fixed!

 

[Lizardmatt]

Odds aren't as good as you think.
If you roll a 1 or 2, and meet the casting value, you still fail to cast, your concentration is broken, and the Slann is done for the phase.

Only 66% succeed without Tetto (1's and 2's fail).
With Tetto, 77% succeed (2's fail, and 1's get re-rolled failing on a 1 or 2).

Odds of getting 2 spells off on 1 die without broken concentration is only 60%.
That drops down to 47% for 3 spells, and all the way down to 22% for all 6.

The slaan is just too expensive of a caster to risk with a sequence of 1 die tosses.

 

[VampTeddy]

Odds aren't as good as you think.
If you roll a 1 or 2, and meet the casting value, you still fail to cast, your concentration is broken, and the Slann is done for the phase.

Only 66% succeed without Tetto (1's and 2's fail).
With Tetto, 77% succeed (2's fail, and 1's get re-rolled failing on a 1 or 2).

Odds of getting 2 spells off on 1 die without broken concentration is only 60%.
That drops down to 47% for 3 spells, and all the way down to 22% for all 6.

The slaan is just too expensive of a caster to risk with a sequence of 1 die tosses.

I believe his intention was to 2 dice cast most, and then proceed to 1 dice casting.

I agree however that 1 dice casting should be used for the very last spell, not the last spells.

 

[T_Saurus]

Odds aren't as good as you think.
If you roll a 1 or 2, and meet the casting value, you still fail to cast, your concentration is broken, and the Slann is done for the phase.

Only 66% succeed without Tetto (1's and 2's fail).
With Tetto, 77% succeed (2's fail, and 1's get re-rolled failing on a 1 or 2).

Odds of getting 2 spells off on 1 die without broken concentration is only 60%.
That drops down to 47% for 3 spells, and all the way down to 22% for all 6.

The slaan is just too expensive of a caster to risk with a sequence of 1 die tosses.

Actually those odds are exactly what I think... Looking at a 7 dice phase theres potential to cast 3 spells on 2 dice and then a good chance to cast a 4th. By reroll in 1s you increase the chance of getting a better casting attempt. As you have a bonus of +5 to cast your opponent will be less likely to try to stop you with the same amount of dice you cast with. Leading to a greater disparity in the dice pools.

 

[Lizardmatt]

Two die casting with Tetto (re-rolling 1's) boosts the chance of miscast from 2.77% to 3.78%; roughly an increase from 1:36 to 1:26.
Two die casting 3 times has a ~11% chance to miscast.

I like Tetto, but I don't like him with a slann, it tends to be too much of an investment for too little return.
If the plan is 2 die casting, I'm not seeing the value in 70 points for a +1 to cast. I'd rather have the forbidden rod or the earthing rod.

-Matt

 

[Hebus]

If the plan is 2 die casting, I'm not seeing the value in 70 points for a +1 to cast. I'd rather have the forbidden rod or the earthing rod.
-Matt

When do you think this item is the more potent ?
I think the less die you throw for a spell, the most you benefit from a +1 to cast since you'll cast more spells due to the fact they are easier to cast.