8th Ed. Terradons/Ripperdactyl need some help :)

[Bay91]

Hello Guys

For some expanding I'm going to buy 5 boxes of Terradons for 1 Tiktaq'to, 7 Terradons and 7 Ripperdactyles.
I have seen them in combat and they are the new fear moment.
But I have a few questions.

Terradon Riders can be armed with javelins or flaming fire leech bolas, which should I equip them with? This is also meant to: When I sample them, which should I equip them with

And can someone maybe give me a heads up on, when to use Ripperdactyles and when to terradons?

And should I weighted more terradons than ripperdactyles - can't really find any lists with rippers, but a lot with terradons.

Thanks

 

[SilverFaith]

You need to know that, despite RAI clearly intending tikky to be in a unit, he isn't actually allowed to be. Your playing group might be kind enough to houserule it in your favour, but RAW explicitly disallows characters from joining units of fliers, regardless of his own uni type.

Rippers are FUN, and seems to have a massive psychological impact on the enemy. But their primary weakness is ASF (Worthless against any competent melee unit with that rule, which also includes wood elf archers - you'll be needing those 7 rippers if you want them to survive the first attacks.). Their other weakness is frenzy, because it means you risk front-charging something you didn't want to.

terradons are far safer, and you can't really go wrong with them. I'm personally most fond of firebolas, though I don't actually know which is more effective.

 

[Bay91]

Thanks!

The thing is also that some tournaments (I think?) have that rule that your models have to be the one you are playing, does this make sense?
You can't play a saurus unit with spears as a unit with swords.

And with that in mind I don't want 7 Terradons with spears if you always use the fire bombs But again I'm not totally sure if this is correct, but thats what I remembering to have read.

But again, I have a large army with a lot of choices to use so they will only be used when its a good idea. (But thanks for the advise!)

And agian, is 7 Ripperdactyles too much? compared to 7 Terradons. Out of 14 models, should make more of one than the other?

 

[Gogery]

I too have a fondness for the lizardmen flyers . Got 2 boxes this past week, need more though!

I think that most people lean towards javelins instead of firebolas on terradons since they have twice the range + poison. If you don't mind the loss of range or poison though, bolas are probably okay. S4 means that when they do hit, they'll wound easier than javs, but if javs get sixes to hit (poison!), they get to skip that step altogether.

7 rippers seems like a good size to me, as they tend to need some extra wounds to hit back hard. Have you considered chiefs other than tiktaq? With this many, I'd love to run 2x3 terradon squads and a 6 ripper squad with the 7th of each as a flying chief.

 

[Bay91]

But how do I make a chief? Do i have to mod it myself?
As what I can read there isn't a chief in the boxes?
And yes 6 Rippers + a ripper chief and 6 terradons + terra chief would be smart!

But again is 6/7 rippers to many?

 

[Gogery]

6 Rippers seems to be the recommended unit size from what I've read.

There are indeed parts for a chief in each box! They use the same body as TicTaq, but have a different weapon to attach onto their arm so they dont use his special weapon, and have a head put in the box specifically for chiefs . Personally, I dont like the axe very much they designed for chiefs, so i'll probably give my own just a spear/jav.

If your box had the booklet in it, I think there's a section in there that shows the chief assembly, too.

 

[Dancing with Saurus2]

I'd second most of the advice given especially regarding javs and the extra range. Unfortunately the bolas look so cool and I really like the fluff which makes the choice a bit harder personally. It's a pity you can do 3 of each and then use the front rank to indicate your choice. I've started favouring my rips over terradons in recent games as I think this potential for damage output is much greater. Although you can guarantee that every game I will forgot one of their rules (i forgot their rerolls to hit last week but that didn't stop them munching through some Dragon Princes - yum. They're very different propositions really. The Rip tactica entry's on Lustria was a great read. I think you've made a good decision buying both units and they are some if the best models we've got. FYI I found that I had left over skinks from the boxes which I converted into Camo skinks clambering over rocks. Enjoy!

 

[Pinktaco]

Rippers can be a fun unit, but they suffer from their relatively low initiative. They're basically a bullet that kills and die similar to the new Wild Riders, the biggest difference is that our rippers have a low WS and unless they're up against GW enemies they'll either hit simultaneously or after your opponent. So to prevent a massacre you'll need to aim for a flank charge which is where the hard part comes in. They're only Ld5 so you're now also reliant on a nearby general and preferably also the BSB (usually just the slann) in order to control them.
If you can get them into the flank of GW models and you roll 5/6 on their frenzy you can very easily wreck havoc. If you lose control of them and they make a frontal charge against someone they don't have the frog on they'll be wasted.

If you can learn to play with them they can be a great tool, but even the wood elf players have started to dislike their new Wild Riders despite having high Leadership, similar armour save and ASF with high initiative. In comparing those because point-wise they aren't that far off and we're looking at roughly the same attack output. Ours are just worse.

 

[SilverFaith]

Rippers can be a fun unit, but they suffer from their relatively low initiative. They're basically a bullet that kills and die similar to the new Wild Riders, the biggest difference is that our rippers have a low WS and unless they're up against GW enemies they'll either hit simultaneously or after your opponent. So to prevent a massacre you'll need to aim for a flank charge which is where the hard part comes in. They're only Ld5 so you're now also reliant on a nearby general and preferably also the BSB (usually just the slann) in order to control them.
If you can get them into the flank of GW models and you roll 5/6 on their frenzy you can very easily wreck havoc. If you lose control of them and they make a frontal charge against someone they don't have the frog on they'll be wasted.

If you can learn to play with them they can be a great tool, but even the wood elf players have started to dislike their new Wild Riders despite having high Leadership, similar armour save and ASF with high initiative. In comparing those because point-wise they aren't that far off and we're looking at roughly the same attack output. Ours are just worse.

But ours are flying, and against toaded units, wild riders do far less damage than rippers.

WRs primary benefit is high I + ASF, which makes them effective no matter what happens. Even against other ASF, they strike at the same time, meaning they will always get their full attacks in, no matter what happens. Rippers require far better planning.

If you are really cheesy, you can also abuse the free reform function to face away from targets you don't want to charge... Fluff it as the rider knowing how to make sure his bloodthirsty ripper wont get out of control.

It's still an iffy strategy, even if it IS a perfectly valid move, RAW.

 

[Bay91]

At the moment I'm not playing to win, I'm playing to have fun and learn.

Later when I have played a lot of games with different kind of armies - I will begin to progress for the win/loss

But it is some great respond! I really like to read it

 

[Roka]

At the moment I'm not playing to win, I'm playing to have fun and learn.

Later when I have played a lot of games with different kind of armies - I will begin to progress for the win/loss

But it is some great respond! I really like to read it

how everyone should play

 

[SilverFaith]

At the moment I'm not playing to win, I'm playing to have fun and learn.

Later when I have played a lot of games with different kind of armies - I will begin to progress for the win/loss

But it is some great respond! I really like to read it

That's a good starting point


Rippers can be a good way to get used to frenzy. Temple Guards with Frenzy banner is scary stuff, and although a BSB Slann would make frenzy a non-issue (My local opponent have told me to just stop even rolling for it, that's how little they care for that <0% chance they have...) it's still good to know how it works, and what you need to watch out for.

 

[Bay91]

But still

Someday Im gonna make a lot of calculating and math over this and start going for the wins hehe
But before I start all that I need to have a lot of research, and I can't do research without the models to play with hehe

 

[Pinktaco]

Rippers can be a fun unit, but they suffer from their relatively low initiative. They're basically a bullet that kills and die similar to the new Wild Riders, the biggest difference is that our rippers have a low WS and unless they're up against GW enemies they'll either hit simultaneously or after your opponent. So to prevent a massacre you'll need to aim for a flank charge which is where the hard part comes in. They're only Ld5 so you're now also reliant on a nearby general and preferably also the BSB (usually just the slann) in order to control them.
If you can get them into the flank of GW models and you roll 5/6 on their frenzy you can very easily wreck havoc. If you lose control of them and they make a frontal charge against someone they don't have the frog on they'll be wasted.

If you can learn to play with them they can be a great tool, but even the wood elf players have started to dislike their new Wild Riders despite having high Leadership, similar armour save and ASF with high initiative. In comparing those because point-wise they aren't that far off and we're looking at roughly the same attack output. Ours are just worse.

But ours are flying, and against toaded units, wild riders do far less damage than rippers.

WRs primary benefit is high I + ASF, which makes them effective no matter what happens. Even against other ASF, they strike at the same time, meaning they will always get their full attacks in, no matter what happens. Rippers require far better planning.

If you are really cheesy, you can also abuse the free reform function to face away from targets you don't want to charge... Fluff it as the rider knowing how to make sure his bloodthirsty ripper wont get out of control.

It's still an iffy strategy, even if it IS a perfectly valid move, RAW.

Far less damage? Let's look at their stats. Rippers will have 4-5-6 attacks depending on their egg roll, on average they'll have 5 attacks and 1 stomp and a spear skink.
They have WS3, S4 AP and KB along with hatred.
WRs have WS5, high initiative, S 5 on charge and 3 attacks each on charge + 2 attacks at S3 or 4 from the horsies.
Statistically speaking WRs will do it 13,3 hits vs 12,5 hits assuming it's against WS4 or less. If at WS5 they'll do the same and WS6 such as swordmasters and chosen ones results in a worse result for th rippers. Overall WRs have an advantage. In terms of strength it's S4 vs 5 and AP for both and the occasional KB for the rippers. against T3 models were looking at 8 wounds to the rippers, not counting KB. Against T4 they'll do 6 wounds. The wild riders will do 11 and 9 wounds against T3/4 models. I haven't counted stomps and stags or skinks, but fact is that even if we counted everything they'd probably be equal and not far apart. Point wise WRs are just a bit more expensive. Besides one could also include things such as a champ for the WRs and a banner not to mention a flaming or movement banner.

WRs can easily be M10 and move through forests with no penalty so while they aren't as easy going as flying units they're very fast. Besides a unit of WRs can be perfect monster hunters. T5 models with regen will be face rolled Mike nothing where rippers kinda struggle.

Also while rippers might hit simultaneously against some opponents WRs will be much more safe. Rippers will generally have an uphill struggle against elfs and WoC.

Personally I feel both can be used and both can be devastating, however, if you really want,to make rippers worth it you'll need 6 of these. They can output upwards 24 attacks, 6 skinks at S6 and 4 S4 stomps, but then we're looking at a 240pts unit that's kinda hard to use efficiently.

I think that I'd rather switch out KB on the rippers with ASF. This would make them more useful.

 

[SilverFaith]

Far less damage? Let's look at their stats. Rippers will have 4-5-6 attacks depending on their egg roll, on average they'll have 5 attacks and 1 stomp and a spear skink.
They have WS3, S4 AP and KB along with hatred.
WRs have WS5, high initiative, S 5 on charge and 3 attacks each on charge + 2 attacks at S3 or 4 from the horsies.
Statistically speaking WRs will do it 13,3 hits vs 12,5 hits assuming it's against WS4 or less. If at WS5 they'll do the same and WS6 such as swordmasters and chosen ones results in a worse result for th rippers.

You need to exdplain this to me. How are the rippers worse against ws6? Because you need WS*2+1 to reduce to hit to 5+. So ws5 is enough to reduce the skinks to 5+, which hardly matters anyway.

Overall WRs have an advantage. In terms of strength it's S4 vs 5 and AP for both and the occasional KB for the rippers. against T3 models were looking at 8 wounds to the rippers, not counting KB. Against T4 they'll do 6 wounds. The wild riders will do 11 and 9 wounds against T3/4 models. I haven't counted stomps and stags or skinks, but fact is that even if we counted everything they'd probably be equal and not far apart. Point wise WRs are just a bit more expensive. Besides one could also include things such as a champ for the WRs and a banner not to mention a flaming or movement banner.

hadn't numbercrunched it, but honestly, the kb ignores armour and potentially shaves off far more wounds, especially when you consider that you completely ignore armour saves. this matters against things like dwarves and warriors of chaos. But rippers are automatically worse against anything with ASF anyway (since you took swordmasters as an example - you'll never see rippers actually attack swordmasters, they'll be dead before they get their turn.)

WRs can easily be M10 and move through forests with no penalty so while they aren't as easy going as flying units they're very fast. Besides a unit of WRs can be perfect monster hunters. T5 models with regen will be face rolled Mike nothing where rippers kinda struggle.

Yeah, but this adds to the cost for the WR, and makes them worse against anything resistent to flaming (which I know basically all my scar vets are, because that 2+ ward is just so ridicolously cheap). But the option would have been nice- we barely have access to standards in our army, which is pretty annoying.

Also while rippers might hit simultaneously against some opponents WRs will be much more safe. Rippers will generally have an uphill struggle against elfs and WoC.

Personally I feel both can be used and both can be devastating, however, if you really want,to make rippers worth it you'll need 6 of these. They can output upwards 24 attacks, 6 skinks at S6 and 4 S4 stomps, but then we're looking at a 240pts unit that's kinda hard to use efficiently.

I think that I'd rather switch out KB on the rippers with ASF. This would make them more useful.

ASF would be nice, I3 is pretty low. It would mean we had ASF and rerolls regardless of the initiative against toaded targets.

But I'll stand by my opinion that nothing should have ASF added to them - it should rather be removed from 90% of the models that currently has it. But that's another discussion entirely.

You seem to be right though, wild riders do have plenty of benefits that rippers don't, and ASF is one of the key reasons for this, especially with high initiative. KB is nothing to scoff at, but it IS a bit circumstancial.

And of course, frenzy.

 

[Dancing with Saurus2]

Rips also get to re-roll hits when attacking a unit with bloat toad. I'm not sure WRs do. This helps mitigate the lower WS to certain extent. You've really got to pick and choose your targets though with Rips. They can savage elves but only if they get to attack otherwise ...

I think both Rips and WRs are good fun units!!

 

[SilverFaith]

Rips also get to re-roll hits when attacking a unit with bloat toad. I'm not sure WRs do. This helps mitigate the lower WS to certain extent. You've really got to pick and choose your targets though with Rips. They can savage elves but only if they get to attack otherwise ...

I think both Rips and WRs are good fun units!!

WRs have ASF and high initiative, so...

 

[KingCheops]

It might be difficult because the FLBs are meant to be held in an elevated fashion but IIRC the arms for Javelins and for FLBs are separate so perhaps you could try pinning or magnetizing? That way you could just swap them out as desired. Worst case scenario you just need to use a bit of green stuff to fill up the hole.

I haven't tried this myself because I wanted my 6 to be Rippers but I am having success pinning them to their flight stands. Just need to kink the wire a bit so they don't spin around depending on where their weight is.

 

[Dancing with Saurus2]

@SilverFaith Hi,

Rips also get to re-roll hits when attacking a unit with bloat toad. I'm not sure WRs do. This helps mitigate the lower WS to certain extent. You've really got to pick and choose your targets though with Rips. They can savage elves but only if they get to attack otherwise ...

I think both Rips and WRs are good fun units!!

WRs have ASF and high initiative, so...

'Re-rolls to hit' appeared to be a not insignificant attribute that was missing from your discussion re: Rips and WRs. If it was mentioned apologies. There wasn't an agenda beyond that it's just an FYI.

 

[Gogery]

@SilverFaith Hi,

Rips also get to re-roll hits when attacking a unit with bloat toad. I'm not sure WRs do. This helps mitigate the lower WS to certain extent. You've really got to pick and choose your targets though with Rips. They can savage elves but only if they get to attack otherwise ...

I think both Rips and WRs are good fun units!!

WRs have ASF and high initiative, so...

'Re-rolls to hit' appeared to be a not insignificant attribute that was missing from your discussion re: Rips and WRs. If it was mentioned apologies. There wasn't an agenda beyond that it's just an FYI.

To clarify this, if you have ASF and higher initiative than your opponent, you are allowed to reroll misses against them in combat.