8th Ed. Temple Guard unit sizes

[strewart]

As I was driving to uni this morning pondering LM tactics (as one does) I got thinking about the debate surrounding TG lately and how they should be used. As I do with expensive infantry, I thought exactly what do the non-fighting models do? The answer, since TG are unbreakable with a Slann, is absolutely nothing.

Sure if you take 30 of them and have a heap of ranks, you may stop your opponent pulling steadfast, may even break their unit a bit quicker. But thats obviously not worth it when each model is that many points. The back guys can also absorb a few wounds, but with the armour of TG (can use their shields at range) and the toughness, its not really going to be a huge problem. Plus the majority of Slann are rolling around with life so they can heal casualties.

So I'm thinking 16 TG and a Slann is definitely the maximum size that should be taken now. In fact, I went a step further, TG are quite good on the offensive but arguably got boosted the least since the Slann takes up two of the second rank slots. To make use of the TG offensiveness, they should be ran 6 wide for extra attacks (16 before champs extra and Slann, compared to 13 for 5 wide).

If you simply go 6x3 since, as we established, extra TG beyond the second rank are essentially fillers, you only need 14 TG and have a cheaper unit than before. However, the problem with that is the Slann's arse is poking out the back so if the unit gets rear charged, he is in trouble. If you still take 16 TG and just have two extra at the back, that will cover him until they die, and given that a straight rear charge shouldn't happen all that often especially on your most important and well protected unit, it should be ok. Adding too many more may be just increasing the points for little gain.

As an added benefit, the Slann becomes symmetrical in the unit again with 2 TG on either side rather than offset, which all of us with a hint of OCD will be happy with.

Thoughts?

 

[vapor]

I've been running with 16 since 7th (and my extra models have been converted into saurus heroes and lords). I've been tempted to bite the bullet and bump it up to 20/21 for either the extra attacks or the extra ranks, but as it stands my TG+Slann is already worth 1000 VP's if destroyed. Between earth blood, regrowth, and the lovely coldblooded, rerollable, stubborn leadership 10 it has yet to let me down.

Besides, bumping it up 4 or 5 models almost or does pay/s for another salamander.

 

[novatomato]

I can't help it, I have to put 20 on the table. In all honesty that is because of the meta game around these parts. If I put the slann and TG down they will invariably draw all warmachine fire and that means a metric shit ton of incoming hurt. They tend to not cast at my slann a lot but if they do it is always those bloody elves and there final transmutation with irrestible force on any doubles. So even though they have a good armour save and they have good toughness I end up losing around twelve by turn two, so I want them to have enough numbers to keep 'look out sir' around and also make sure I still have a unit to cast regrowth on.
20 also gives good rank bonus at 6 wide for when they do get into combat, and it is symmetrical both length and width wise.
These points are based pretty much entirely around the meta game around here though so they will differ drastically from a number of people.

 

[strewart]

Excellent - two vastly differing viewpoints already! Just what I wanted. Great point about the metagame, and making your list to suit how games generally play out in your area, since every area is essentially different, nova. Good to see you find 20 TG 6 wide to be effective.

I've been running with 16 since 7th (and my extra models have been converted into saurus heroes and lords). I've been tempted to bite the bullet and bump it up to 20/21 for either the extra attacks or the extra ranks, but as it stands my TG+Slann is already worth 1000 VP's if destroyed. Between earth blood, regrowth, and the lovely coldblooded, rerollable, stubborn leadership 10 it has yet to let me down.

Besides, bumping it up 4 or 5 models almost or does pay/s for another salamander.

It may have seemed like it from my post, but bumping the unit size up to 20 was not the absolute conclusion I came to. It was merely where my thoughts ended for those worried about rear charges. Do you find your TG unit gets rear charged very often? If not, consider dropping the unit to 14 and going 6x3 to free up some points. Or, run 6x3 anyway and just keep two at the back for rear protection. 15 might even be a decent size to keep just one at the back.

I am personally leaning toward 16 TG in 6x3 with a couple at the back, hell even if you do lose a few and don't have life or don't think you can raise them it is pretty easy to reform these days. I still see absolutely no reason not to go to 6 wide.

On a slightly related and somewhat amusing note, in some ways salamanders are a bad thing for our list as they are. Look at how much we value a mere 80 points! I think 80 points is more valuable to a LM player than any other army there is!

'Oh I could boost this unit up to increase its effectiveness for just 80 points'
'Nooooo! Don't do that! Thats the cost of a slamander and they are soo much better!'

Well, its true I guess. But is it really beneficial comparing every small unit upgrade to that of a salamander? I think its fair to assume that sallies are basically the first thing that gets dropped into every list, so any shuffling does not happen at the expense of the salamander quota. If you find yourself tossing up between 20 TG or 16 TG and a salamander, start your list again and include as many salamanders as you want to take first.

 

[Nuclear]

If you simply go 6x3 since, as we established, extra TG beyond the second rank are essentially fillers, you only need 14 TG and have a cheaper unit than before. However, the problem with that is the Slann's arse is poking out the back so if the unit gets rear charged, he is in trouble. If you still take 16 TG and just have two extra at the back, that will cover him until they die, and given that a straight rear charge shouldn't happen all that often especially on your most important and well protected unit, it should be ok. Adding too many more may be just increasing the points for little gain.

Thoughts?

You would need a full back rank, or at least more than 2, to protect the slann. It works that if the back rank is uneven, you count every exposed, non-b2b model as in b2b with the rear charger. See pg 49. For example:

12
345678

Thats a diagram of the rear 2 ranks. So 1, 2, and 5-8 are all engaged. In the case of TG+Slann, 56 is the slann. So you need 3 in the back at min, though by the time someone gets there, you'd have lost some guys, so if you really want the slanns butt protected, you'd probably want a full back rank. That said, you are probably right, you don't need to worry about it too much. Skink skirmishers are there for a reason.



On to the topic- I think 14 is an ideal size as it gives you enough extra bodies to soak up some wounds, and stays small enough to afford other things as well. If you are running 2 saurus blocks AND a TG block, pts start to add up quick for other options.

For me, just starting out its more "Oh, I could switch those pts over to a salamader....oh wait I only own 3 and I don't have $25 lying around...." I hate when something so pts cheap costs so much (cough*SM rhinos*cough).

 

[strewart]

Hmm yeah I am fully aware that models behind the incomplete rank can still count as being in combat, the part I was unsure on and didn't want to make a definitive comment on until I got home and checked myself was where the models in the incomplete rank had to stand.

I know in 7th ed the incomplete rank had to be positioned toward the middle of the unit always, the only exception being Brets. I have now had a brief look at the relevant sections, including the page you quoted, and can see nothing mentioning it. So why put them at the edge and expose the Slann as you have? Do this:

T T T T T T
T T S S T T
T T S S T T
- - T T - -

Now if someone charges the rear, those two TG cover the Slann's arse and the the TG on either side of him count as filling in the incomplete rank. Is there anything stopping that from working?

 

[vaalnn]

I take 21 temple guard (5x5) in games at or above 2250. I agree with novatomato, especially in the games I fight it's the slann that takes most of the punishment, and its the Slann that my opponents always charge with their most horrible unit. Last night I think I lost 13 in the first round of combat with Tyrion +11 dragon princes (toughness buff got dispel scrolled ). The unit held and with a flank charge with a steggy, Tyrion was fleeing the next turn. The extra 5 TG pretty much made the difference.

As well as this I seem to have utterly apalling luck with regrowth, I only ever seem to bring 2 or 3 back to life, even with throne of vines up.

 

[kroxigor01]

I take 20. A high elf player did some bullshit too me once when I took 16, charging 2 Sun dragons at me...

I feel that it is a tad too easy to attrition down the 16, another 4 models is enough to give one more magic phase to get off +4 toughness or regrowth and get the unit outa dodge.

 

[novatomato]

I can see how people would like to spend less on our already expensive character as with those extra 80 points we can get a salamander which are very good, or two CO's with enough for a musician on the unit. Or people could even get another skink priest with the teapot. There are a lot of things we can use 80 points for in the lizardmen army, my thoughts for those 80 points is that we spend them on the unit protecting our expensive character, because that unit is also quite good at combat. I tend to think, and play it, as more or a lot of points on a unit of tempe guard with SCR of 5 (minimum) that can cast spells. I'm not worried about losing my slann in CC, the revered guardian is there for challenges and can be brought back to life if he dies.
The only time I'm worried about losing my slann is when my opponents are shooting at him, however with the Look Ot Sir! rule that means that I'm only worried when the unit is brought down to less than five models. Killing 16 Temple Guard is significantly harder than killing 9, almost twice as hard.

 

[wolfmage]

In larger games chakax becomes worthwhile with the slann who can regrowth and attribute him to full health so that challenge will probably last until your opponent is dead and the unit becomes an even more solid anvil. Sure the points cost is huge but in larger games he is worth every penny and can even bring down lord level characters.

 

[vapor]

In larger games chakax becomes worthwhile with the slann who can regrowth and attribute him to full health so that challenge will probably last until your opponent is dead and the unit becomes an even more solid anvil. Sure the points cost is huge but in larger games he is worth every penny and can even bring down lord level characters.

In large games I'd rather build my own old blood that does more for less.

 

[boreas]

In larger games chakax becomes worthwhile with the slann who can regrowth and attribute him to full health so that challenge will probably last until your opponent is dead and the unit becomes an even more solid anvil. Sure the points cost is huge but in larger games he is worth every penny and can even bring down lord level characters.

Don't forget you can't regrowt characters or their mounts (so no regrowth on that stegadon if it has a character on it)! You can still give him wounds with the attribute, though...

Phil

 

[TheRolfgar]

In larger games chakax becomes worthwhile with the slann who can regrowth and attribute him to full health so that challenge will probably last until your opponent is dead and the unit becomes an even more solid anvil. Sure the points cost is huge but in larger games he is worth every penny and can even bring down lord level characters.

You can only declare a single challenge per combat (not round of combat, the entire thing). Chakax is useless.
(p102 BRB)
You declare a challenge, they accept with champion, you murder the champ, then you cannot declare a 2nd challenge to thier lord/hero whatever. Since all of Chakax's abilities are only available during a challenge he becomes very easy to kill.

I would love to be wrong about this but the people at my gaming store say thats how it works now.

 

[kroxigor01]

pg 103 of BRB

"Further challenges cannot be issued in that combat until the existing challenge has been resolved."

Seems pretty clear to me. Finish the first challenge. Challenge again.

 

[wolfmage]

And as such Chakax can keep challenging and most non-elite infantry will struggle to bring him down. Queek and 30 clanrats vs chakax, chakax escapes unharmed and killed queek out of challenge he used the i punch you in the face rule to kill queek took no wounds but lost combat by one, damn musician, and failed cold blooded on an 11

 

[TheRolfgar]

That will learn me for not reading both pages fully! I had just read the first part and let a bunch of morons convince me thats how it was.