8th Ed. Temple Guard in 1250 point army? Starting out and need help

[T`hinker`er]

Hey guys, I am about to start a Warhammer campaign with the Lizardmen, which I have never played with before but have always wanted to. The idea behind the campaign is to force ourselves to build and paint and learn new armies by staying with an army for about a year and trying it out against the same few opponents over and over again as we each build new forces from scratch. My opponents will be playing Dwarfs, Warriors of Chaos, Beastmen and High Elves. It's quite a commitment, as over the next year I will likely have to paint about 3000 points of miniatures so that I can have optional builds and be unpredictable. Also, as characters, rare and special troops are very limited in the beginning of the campaign (until you start winning territories) you have to start out with a lot of RnF troops.

I need to have my 1250 point army done and ready to play with in 4 weeks! We deduct points for unpainted troops, and deduct fewer points for minimally painted troops - you have to be done and based not to suffer these VP penalties (as motivation to paint!)

So anyway, I have my work cut out for me and I am wondering whether I should bother with a unit of 15 or 20 Temple Guard. Are they viable in such a small army and in such numbers, especially when I am unlikely to be fielding a Slann for at least a few months? I have limited time, so I don't want to paint stuff that ends up being a point sink or easy VP for my opponents.

Thinking about a unit of 18, 3x6 wide...

Also, where do people hide their skink priests? I was considering only taking skink skirmishers as the ranked units of skinks seem pretty bad, and nearly as bad and far too costly with Krox added. Am I wrong?

Any advice appreciated!

 

[novatomato]

Re: Temple Guard in 1250 point army

in all honesty I like the Temple Guard as a stand alone unit without the slann they are still WS4 S5 (halberds) T4 troops with a 4+ save (3+ vs ranged attacks), plus they can take a magical banner AND the Revered Guardian can have a 25 point magic item.
They can form a very strong central point to your army in larger numbers (24 would be the max here for a 6x4 unit but I would suggest going with 20 at 5x4) or as an excellent flank charger/protector at 18 or 15 models. You can have a smaller unit than this but I wouldn't bother with magic items at that point.
To counter act the large point cost of the unit you'll probably want to field a fair number of skinks, either as skirmishers or as cohorts (perhaps even with a Kroxigor or two?) and salamanders.

 

[T`hinker`er]

The Sun Standard of Chotek seemed a good choice for a unit of only 18 models. Didn't consider giving the champ a magic weapon, but I suppose a potion of speed could be very useful...except against the H. Elves. Not sure about Chaos - haven't played against them since 5th edition.

I would eventually bulk the unit up to 24 models, but I think 3 ranks is pushing it at 1250.

As it stands now my army plan has only the TG, one unit of 20 Saurus, 2 units of skirmishing skinks, a unit of chameleons and a salamander. I feel like that's not much at all (bear in mind I've been playing Skaven and Empire since 4th edition so I am used to having between 6 and 10 units on the table...this is going to be a painful learning process I think!)

And THANKS for the quick reply!!!

 

[novatomato]

no problem.

Have you considered the Sword of the Hornet for the Champ? he'd be Always Strike first at S4 (no halberd) and also have a 3+ armour save in combat, pretty good for a challenger, or acceptor and with three attacks could even kill off the enemy character before they get to strike.
Another nasty trick is to give him the Blood Statuette of Spite which is a fairly decent item against High Elves (them being T3 across the board). Any of the potions wouldn't be a bad choice, a S8 saurus is pretty damn nasty, but so is a T7 even is only for one turn.


The Sun Standard is a great banner to have on anything, but I might actually drop it for something else that would provide a nasty trick or increase their combat potential.
Huanchis Totem for the extra d6 inches on the charge can really throw a wrench in the enemies plan. Even just the regular War Banner for a Static Combat res of 4 (two ranks plus two for the banner) although I'd put this on a 20 or 24 strong unit for that one extra rank. (4 is pretty standard as a Static Combat res number so starting off at the same CR gives the TG the advantage in many cases)
The Razor Standard is not bad against WOC and Dwarves as that meas the enemy will be making their armour saves at -3.

One thing to keep in mind with a 15 to 18 strong TG unit is you will also need a larger block of regular warriors or a great big block of skinks with a few kroxigors in it to take the enemy on the front while the TG take the flank. That or you need some hard hitting something(s) to get in at the same time as the TG because you won't really be winning a grind war with only three ranks.

 

[T`hinker`er]

Those sound like great tricks to try, thanks At this point the most important thing for me to focus on is how many models I need to paint to get something on the table, so I am allotting myself just 2 characters, a skink priest and an Old Blood. Not sure how to keep that priest alive frankly once combat starts. I guess I can keep him out of units, but that's also risky.

As for a big block and using the TG as flankers, I am not sure if my 20 saurus qualify. I have a hard time imagining having more ranks than my enemy to gain steadfast...but then again my enemies' troops aren't that cheap either. I was thinking a unit with 1 krox and 11 skinks, just to start out, and drop one of the skirmishing skink units...

1250 is pretty tough, but that's part of the challenge

 

[novatomato]

With the skink priest I'd give him level two and the Plaque of Tepok, then stick him in a minimum unit of jav and shield skirmishers. This way he has high mobility (M6 with free reform goes a long way). With a -1 to hit for being skirmishers he can be safe from all but the most concentrated fire, if you have two units then when one gets dwindled down the priest can just hope out to the next.
At this level 11 skinks and a krox aren't going to do a whole lot, you'd need at least 2 krox, especially when up against dwarves or WOC.

20 Strong Saurus are still powerful, give them hand weapon and shield just for that extra little bit of survivability.

Also, I will not stop repeating this however long it takes. Get some salamanders in there if possible. (always get the extra snack, er I mean skink.) run a single group of two and watch them burn everything.

 

[BEEGfrog]

Temple guard gain additional benefits when in a unit with a slann. These abilities are factored into their cost even when there is no slann making them less cost effective when there is no slann in your army.

As you have the models I would consider using them mixed into the rear ranks of saurus warrior blocks "counting as" the majority saurus as allowed in the rules. I would then consider using them as real TG from around 1750pts when a slann becomes viable.

I agree with novatomato about salamanders, they are one of the most cost effective and useful units we have. It is best to run them as as many different units as allowed by the limits.

 

[T`hinker`er]

Beegfrog - love your avatar! Is that an actual statue somewhere?

Good point on the TG being a bit overpriced w/o the Slann. I am going to have to convert the plastic Saurus I have to make them, so the less sculpting I have to do in the first month just to get ready the better (I am already busy sculpting hand weapons, converting skinks with bows into javalin & Shield troops - I will start an army blog soon! I have 100's of plastics from 5th edition boxed game and I plan to convert as much as possible...I am fairly handy with greenstuff http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/old-schooler-new-to-lizzies.5025/)

Still, that +1WS, +1Str and +1 save looks mighty good...

The point about the Krox is well taken, but I thought perhaps this tiny unit would be able to cover a flank fairly cheaply. I was always a fan of multiple small units and a lot of maneuvering. Maybe in 8th edition that is an obsolete tactic? Not sure how 8th has changed the game for Lizzies, other than probably making the Cold One Cavalry junk now (lots to learn, and unlearn...) I do not really see how I can rely on steadfast though.

I do have 1 salamander in the army at 1250. Thanks for reminding me to get some extra crew! Can't imagine I will be able to afford a second at 1250, but perhaps if I can add a baggage train to my banner in the campaign rules (most armies can buy artillery train add-ons, not sure yet what the Lizzies will get as compensation since we have no warmachines, I should have the updated campaign rules from my group's leader in a few days).

 

[novatomato]

making the Cold One Cavalry junk now

This is absolutely wrong, they are on the expensive side points wise but they are still a very good unit, people just seem to be too lazy to bother trying them out at all.

As for the Temple Guard being 'over priced without a slann' perhaps but I disagree I think you pay for that +1 WS and halberd and light armor with the measly 5 points increase over regular saurus. they do have special rules that make them 'better' with a slann in the unit but they are by no means over priced without him, they just happen to compete with other very strong special choices and the whole Slann must be in Temple Guard if present situation makes it highly unlikely that our armies will have a second unit of Temple Guard in them.

Lets run that by again, +5 points gets you, a halberd (probably be a regular cost of 2 or 3 points on its own), Light Armour (again probably 1 or 2 points on its own) +1 WS (which is again probably 2 or 3 points upgrade). Add in the magical standard ability and the magic item on the champion (the ability to take them is in the cost of the character upgrades I'd say) and you have either a reasonably priced unit (2+1+2=5) or a damn cheap unit (3+2+3=/=5).

Well, I'm glad the concept of 'Temple Guard are only worth it with a Slann' has come up and I have said my piece but I won't derail this thread anymore than I already have.

The Skrox unit can be a good flanking unit but I will say this. With one Krox, against all but the worst enemies (worst being Clan Rats, Skaven Slaves, Golbins, Gnoblars other Skinks and perhaps Peasants) the skrox will struggle to make a large impact in the fight. You'll find that the skinks might, possibly perhaps cause a single wound before armor saves are taken and the krox may in fact cause two casualties. But the enemy if he has four ranks, will probably kill four skinks (or more if the unit has more than a single attack on its profile), thus negating everything the skinks got that turn.

I do like the Skrox units, they are a highly aggressive unit, able to march 12 inches is great, but when they are in combat, you need enough Kroxigors to be able to cover for the poor skinks paper who will be ripped apart like a wet paper towel (single ply).

An MSU approach to the army list is a viable strategy in a few ways but better suits a fully fast moving army (Wood Elves and Brettonians are an example of this). With Lizards you really cant do MSU either we are too slow with saurus and thus need to bulk up our numbers a bit to wether the incoming fire, or we are too weak with skinks who die to a stiff breeze and worse they need to be REALLY close for most skink things. So Lizards are best with a combined arms style, a few units of saurus around the 20 to 30 mark and a bunch of smaller skink supporting units. Of course they're are countless variations (see Xtapl's army for a full on skinkalicious experience) but the core will remain the same.

 

[T`hinker`er]

With the skink priest I'd give him level two and the Plaque of Tepok, then stick him in a minimum unit of jav and shield skirmishers. This way he has high mobility (M6 with free reform goes a long way). With a -1 to hit for being skirmishers he can be safe from all but the most concentrated fire, if you have two units then when one gets dwindled down the priest can just hope out to the next.

Good advice on what to do with the Sk.Priest, thanks, but don't you think that Siverjir's Hex Scroll would be a nasty trick where everyone is going to be limited to lvl 2 wizards (at least in the early games)?

As for the smallish Skink/Krox unit, I suppose I will occasionally have the chance to use it against Marauders and Ungors. Not sure how those numbers "crunch"...math was never my strongest ability At what unit size/configuration would you reckon a Skrox unit viable? Seems to me that the skinks dying off in droves will always make this a bad choice.

Interesting that you still believe the Cold Ones are worthwhile. Cavalry certainly seems like it would just bounce off under 8th edition. I will certainly try them out, but probably not until my banner sizes are up around 2000 points.

I tend to agree that the Temple Guard are worth it even without the slann, and it's not off topic - actually that's exactly what the original topic was

 

[BEEGfrog]

Beegfrog - love your avatar! Is that an actual statue somewhere?

I wish it did exist, but it is a bit of graphics wizardry morphing a stern frog head with a statue of buddha

 

[n810]

In 8th it seems that Calvery is only effective as flank chargers,
since they will be geting points for the flank and charging first,
but mostly because there willl only be a single rank attacking back.

also it is improtant to have the unit you are charging either
simutainusly charged in the front by some saurus, or allready in combat
with some other hard unit.


Ps. long time no see BEEGfrog

Pps. don't forget the +1 strenght attack for charging with spears.

 

[T`hinker`er]

True about Cav getting +1 for the flank (assuming no enemy have your flank too) and the charge (a one time +1...big whoop!), but unless you have 2 ranks you can't disorder by charging in the flanks, and 2 ranks of Saurus Cavalry is VERY expensive. I can think of so many better ways to spend all those points. 8th edition just seems to favor big blocks of infantry it seems.

Anyway, I do have Sarus Cavalry models, so at some point these will be in my army, but not until I have 2 units of 20 saurus, 18-24 TG and at least one big block of SKrox (or perhaps just a unit of 3-6 Krox).

So what is a useful size Skrix unit against Dwarves and WoC?

Going to be sculpting again tonight and working feverishly over the weekend...look for that army blog to start on Monday!