AoS TELEPORT LORD KROAK

[dinoSTARZ]

Can you teleport lord kroak when he is atop a vortex? If so, does the vortex come with him? If you can teleport him off the balewind and not take it with you, does it just sit there, billowing in the breeze, causing nobody to get near it (as it was not dismissed)?

 

[Aginor]

Can you teleport lord kroak when he is atop a vortex?

Yes.

If so, does the vortex come with him?

No.

If you can teleport him off the balewind and not take it with you, does it just sit there, billowing in the breeze, causing nobody to get near it (as it was not dismissed)?

I tend to say yes the Vortex stays, BUT as the rules say "Models cannot move within 3" of a Balewind Vortex while a wizard is atop it" it does not block the area as soon as he is gone.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Yes.


No.


I tend to say yes the Vortex stays, BUT as the rules say "Models cannot move within 3" of a Balewind Vortex while a wizard is atop it" it does not block the area as soon as he is gone.

If Kroak leaves the balewind can another wizard use it?

 

[Aginor]

Last year I would have said no as I saw the BWV pretty much as an effect of a spell, which ends if the wizard who casted it doesn't maintain it anymore.

Now I am not sure anymore and tend to say yes.

The BWV only restricts movement. And it doesn't say that the wizard has to stay on top to maintain it, which tells us it stays there if the wizard teleports away. It is a piece of scenery.
And that in turn tells us that you can teleport another wizard onto the BWV to use it.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Last year I would have said no as I saw the BWV pretty much as an effect of a spell, which ends if the wizard who casted it doesn't maintain it anymore.

Now I am not sure anymore and tend to say yes.

The BWV only restricts movement. And it doesn't say that the wizard has to stay on top to maintain it, which tells us it stays there if the wizard teleports away. It is a piece of scenery.
And that in turn tells us that you can teleport another wizard onto the BWV to use it.

So could your opponent use it?

 

[Aginor]

If the above statements of mine are true:
Yes. It is scenery, so I see no reason why not.

 

[Aginor]

Now that I think about it it gets even more absurd if you just follow the rules as written:

Since the movement is only restricted with a wizard on top it means - by rules as writen - that models can climb the Balewind Vortex if it is empty. They don't even need to teleport onto it.
A Starpriest that has been buffed by the Slann's command ability can just fly up there.

 

[Canas]

Now that I think about it it gets even more absurd if you just follow the rules as written:

Since the movement is only restricted with a wizard on top it means - by rules as writen - that models can climb the Balewind Vortex if it is empty. They don't even need to teleport onto it.
A Starpriest that has been buffed by the Slann's command ability can just fly up there.

I'd say limit it too teleporting.

Also, if the balewind stays it can be used tacticly which I'd like. Which becomes especially interesting if you bring multiple of em. Summon it to block choke-points, then teleport away that sorta stuff.

On a sidenote; are there rules about what happens when the wizard atop of it dies? Cuz those might clarify it.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Hmmm

I've just read the rules and it says,

A wizard atop a balewind cannot move but may banish it to return to the ground, I know teleporting does not count as "movement" but it does imply that it has to be banished to disappear, no mention of what happens when the wizard dies so I would presume it stays as it's not been banished

 

[Aginor]

Sniped by @Crowsfoot .....well, here's my post anyway.

I'd say limit it too teleporting.

Why? That makes it harder for almost any army that isn't Seraphon.
It is bad enough as it is already, with the melee immunity and so on.

On a sidenote; are there rules about what happens when the wizard atop of it dies? Cuz those might clarify it.

There are no such rules. In fact if you take them as written there is only that the wizard on top cannot move, and can dismiss it if they wish.
So there is no reason to assume the Vortex vanishes if the wizard dies.

But it clearly says it doesn't block movement if there is no wizard on top.



About balance of the whole thing:

Just two examples:
1. Right now you can win a game like "two places of power" against Ironjawz by teleporting a lone wizard to a mission objective, put it onto a BWV and defend the other objective with your whole army. There is no way the Ironjawz can kill that guy except with a lucky Maw-Krusha (its ranged attack sucks) or a REALLY lucky shaman. Same against some other armies. Basically every list that doesn't have a good amount of shooting and/or magic. Like a Sunclaw Starhost for example, or a Firelance.

2. A battleplan requires the enemy to kill your general (Assassination). Chances are good your general is a Slann, or even worse: Kroak. Put him on a BWV. No melee army can kill him in any way. The only chance would be magic but it is hard to do enough wounds to Kroak.


Bottom line: the rules should be completely rewritten IMO. It is a unbalanced POC right now.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Sniped by @Crowsfoot .....well, here's my post anyway.


Why? That makes it harder for almost any army that isn't Seraphon.
It is bad enough as it is already, with the melee immunity and so on.


There are no such rules. In fact if you take them as written there is only that the wizard on top cannot move, and can dismiss it if they wish.
So there is no reason to assume the Vortex vanishes if the wizard dies.

But it clearly says it doesn't block movement if there is no wizard on top.



About balance of the whole thing:

Just two examples:
1. Right now you can win a game like "two places of power" against Ironjawz by teleporting a lone wizard to a mission objective, put it onto a BWV and defend the other objective with your whole army. There is no way the Ironjawz can kill that guy except with a lucky Maw-Krusha (its ranged attack sucks) or a REALLY lucky shaman. Same against some other armies. Basically every list that doesn't have a good amount of shooting and/or magic. Like a Sunclaw Starhost for example, or a Firelance.

2. A battleplan requires the enemy to kill your general (Assassination). Chances are good your general is a Slann, or even worse: Kroak. Put him on a BWV. No melee army can kill him in any way. The only chance would be magic but it is hard to do enough wounds to Kroak.


Bottom line: the rules should be completely rewritten IMO. It is a unbalanced POC right now.

I agree, they should make the Balewind have wounds and therefore can be destroyed by melee, they could make it immune to mortal wounds etc etc

 

[Aginor]

Yeah, or make a ritual possible to banish it. Effectively working similar to attacking it.

Or maybe like a priest ability:
At the beginning of the hero phase any model in base contact with the BWV can attempt to weaken it: Roll a dice, by rolling a 6. The BWV has to be weakened three times to ban it. A hero gets a +1 modifier on the roll. The models cannot do anything else in that round.

Stuff like that.

 

[Canas]

Sniped by @Crowsfoot .....well, here's my post anyway.


Why? That makes it harder for almost any army that isn't Seraphon.
It is bad enough as it is already, with the melee immunity and so on.

Cuz then I can use it as a barrier and I find that cool.

as for balancing; yea, something should probably be included to allow the removal of the thing by the enemy in some way. Unfortunatly if the enemy can do it reliably it basicly ruins the balewind and if they can't do it reliably we're back at square one. Personally I'd think something like the following would be best.

1) At the start of each hero phase roll a dice for every model within 3" of a balewind (and that isn't on top of it) on a 5+ it suffers a mortal wound
2) Roll a dice each time a model moves in or out of the 3" bubble around the balewind, on a 4+ it suffers a mortal wound.
3) The wizard on top of the balewind gains a ward save of 6+
4) the wizard on top gains an attack with the following stats: 2d6/4+/4+/-1/1
5) killing the wizard destroys any balewinds he currently has summonend.

This way melee armies can get near enough to kill the wizard, or cross it, but it is very costly. Killing the wizard gives a clear oppertunity to remove it. But the balewind also changes the wizard into a melee powerhouse, seeing as most wizards are awefull warriors. Don't want the enemy to be able to just dump 1 elite unit on it and kill it immeadiatly.

Also, it has the downside of potential friendly fire so protecting the wizard is also a tad more complicated.

Also, numbers are obviously made up and would need rebalancing. I'd say these'd be fine with say a starpriest on top but Kroak might still be a tad problematic with this. And any wizard that's actually a capable combatant and caster would be horrific to deal with (e.g. nagash) I am however unsure if you can manage to balance nagash on a balewind.

 

[Aginor]

I am however unsure if you can manage to balance nagash on a balewind.

I am pretty sure Nagash or Arkhan cannot use a BWV as they have the Monster keyword.

IIRC the strongest wizards that can use it are the Gaunt Summoner, Slanns, and Kroak. Maybe an Weirdnob Shaman or a Wurrgog Prophet. Branchwych isn't too shabby on it either.

 

[Crowsfoot]

I am pretty sure Nagash or Arkhan cannot use a BWV as they have the Monster keyword.

IIRC the strongest wizards that can use it are the Gaunt Summoner, Slanns, and Kroak. Maybe an Weirdnob Shaman or a Wurrgog Prophet. Branchwych isn't too shabby on it either.

Yep Nagash has Monster keyword

 

[Canas]

I am pretty sure Nagash or Arkhan cannot use a BWV as they have the Monster keyword.

IIRC the strongest wizards that can use it are the Gaunt Summoner, Slanns, and Kroak. Maybe an Weirdnob Shaman or a Wurrgog Prophet. Branchwych isn't too shabby on it either.

Slanns aren't exactly melee powerhouses, so those should be fine. Nor do they have Kroaks massvie spam of mortal wounds. A gaunt summoner should still be counterable by small elite units. I think Kroak might be the only problematic one as any real threat to him would be showered in mortal wounds and there's no real difference in what kinda unit you'd send against him (unlike with the gaunt).

Ah well, quite decent for a rought draft then

 

[Killer Angel]

If I have to rewrite the rules for BWV, for a starter I would require the expenditure of a spell slot each turn by the wizard atop it, to mantain the concentration to keep the Vortex active.

 

[Crowsfoot]

If I have to rewrite the rules for BWV, for a starter I would require the expenditure of a spell slot each turn by the wizard atop it, to mantain the concentration to keep the Vortex active.

That would make it a game changer, your one spell a turn wizards would be pointless on a vortex, your stronger wizards would have a hard choice to make, good call @Killer Angel

 

[Killer Angel]

That would make it a game changer, your one spell a turn wizards would be pointless on a vortex,

Yeah, you could still use it to hold an objective or similar things, but that would be a harder choice to make, as you would "freeze" around 200 pts of your list (the wizard and the Vortex itself)

 

[Canas]

If I have to rewrite the rules for BWV, for a starter I would require the expenditure of a spell slot each turn by the wizard atop it, to mantain the concentration to keep the Vortex active.

Meh, I'd say that'd be a bad idea. It's already only used for stuff like Kroaknado's, this'd make it basicly completly impracticle to use with "minor" wizards. And Multi-spell wizards are far too uncommon as far as I can tell for that to be acceptable.