AoS Teleport Astrolith Bearer

[Hu3pfka3s3]

So you can't teleport the Sarus Astrolith Bearer and then plant his banner, nor you can't plant and then teleport him... am i right?

 

[LordRibbit]

Counts as movement so afraid not!

 

[Killer Angel]

So you can't teleport the Sarus Astrolith Bearer and then plant his banner, nor you can't plant and then teleport him... am i right?

IMO yes, you CAN teleport the the Astrolith Bearer and then plant the banner.
The teleport of Lords of Space and Time activates in the Hero Phase, so you teleport the Bearer. Unless you don't roll a 6 ", it counts as its move in its next movement phase
in the same hero phase the ScarVet plants the Astrolith... the limitation is that he cannot move in the following movement phase.

The Bearer doesn't move in the movement phase: it has been moved in the hero phase, a thing that "counts as move", to avoid further movements

 

[LordRibbit]

IMO yes, you CAN teleport the the Astrolith Bearer and then plant the banner.
The teleport of Lords of Space and Time activates in the Hero Phase, so you teleport the Bearer. Unless you don't roll a 6 ", it counts as its move in its next movement phase
in the same hero phase the ScarVet plants the Astrolith... the limitation is that he cannot move in the following movement phase.

The Bearer doesn't move in the movement phase: it has been moved in the hero phase, a thing that "counts as move", to avoid further movements

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one I think! lol

 

[Killer Angel]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one I think! lol

Well, by fluff it makes sense. When you plant the banner you cannot move, and you are planting it after the teleport.
The teleport count as move, so it would negate abilities as the one of the Irondrakes, that can shoot twice if they didn't move in the previous phase... but you are planting the astrolith before the movement phase.

 

[Aginor]

I'd also say it works. Planting the banner prevents him from moving in that round starting at that exact moment.
Normally that means he cannot move at all because planting the banner happens in the phase before he can decide to move.
In this case the movement happens before he can decide to put plant his banner, so he is moved, plants his banner, and regardless of the teleport maybe allowing him to move later, he cannot do it because he planted his banner.

 

[Tokek]

Pretty sure it works. The Astrolith Bearer cannot move in the movement phase after teleporting (usually) and also cannot move after planting the banner, so doubly unable to move. Which is just fine. May as well give that model the Prism as it is definitely not moving in the movement phase anyway.

 

[Aginor]

Pretty sure it works. The Astrolith Bearer cannot move in the movement phase after teleporting (usually) and also cannot move after planting the banner, so doubly unable to move. Which is just fine. May as well give that model the Prism as it is definitely not moving in the movement phase anyway.

Yeah the prism is perfect for support units like him.

 

[LordRibbit]

Well, by fluff it makes sense. When you plant the banner you cannot move, and you are planting it after the teleport.
The teleport count as move, so it would negate abilities as the one of the Irondrakes, that can shoot twice if they didn't move in the previous phase... but you are planting the astrolith before the movement phase.

Just re-read the rules and I'd agree with you as long as you teleport before planting it!

 

[Koriialstraz]

Just re-read the rules and I'd agree with you as long as you teleport before planting it!

I, too, agree with that. And I think that it's a good way to put your astrolith where it could be used perfectly.

 

[Vextol]

I know this thread has been quiet for a while, but, I wanted to chime in. I've been researching a lot about 'movement' recently and I have to say I disagree with the idea that the astrolith bearer must teleport first then plant. I don't think the statement "counts as its move in the movement phase" means the model moved. I have an example.

Everyone agrees that you can summon and then teleport a unit correct? I've seen it done a zillion times. Well, if "Counts as its move in the movement phase" is synonymous with "Moving in the movement phase" then this would be an illegal maneuver because the summoned unit cannot move in the movement phase.

I strongly believe that "cannot move in the movement phase", "counts as its move in the movement phase", "This is their move for that movement phase" all mean the same thing: The unit cannot move in the movement phase. Just my two cents.

 

[Aginor]

Well, yes, but it doesn't matter much does it? Except if you want to cast a spell with a wizard standing next to the AB and then teleport the AB somewhere, and THEN have his buff available there?
Regardless of rules as written allowing it or not I would certainly feel silly from a fluff perspective at the least.

 

[Vextol]

The astrolith bearer's range is infinite in regards to spell casting, so "fluff" remains in tact regardless.

What matters is the interpretation of the rules on the whole. If units that teleport count as being moved in the movement phase (which I think is not the same as counts as its move in the movement phase) it has enormous overall impact on the game, especially seraphon.

I'm extrapolating that if planting an astrolith bearer and then teleporting it is not allowed, then summoning and teleporting must also not be allowed. I recognize the wording is slightly different, but the concept holds the same.

 

[Killer Angel]

The movement of the teleport happens before the Astrith Bearer plants the banner, so he is moved, then plants his banner. And then he won't move in the movement phase.

It's basically the exact thing that happens with Stegadon. You teleport it, the Alpha shinx move the stegadon 1d6, then in the movement phase the steggy will not move.

The teleport happens in the hero phase and it's a thing that counts as movement, so you won't move in the move phase, but it doesn't prevent other actions during the hero phase.

 

[Vextol]

I’m probably in the wrong thread...

I understand what people are saying about the astrolith bearer. This is not the point I’m trying to make at all. I’m saying that by making the ruling that teleporting counts as movement, you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

If teleporting counts as movement in the movement phase, then you cannot summon a unit then teleport it.

If you summon a unit, it is not allowed to move in the movement phase. Taking an action, therefore, that counts as movement in the movement phase is the exact same thing as moving it in the movement phase.

So...back to what I've been saying. If that the above is not true, which no-one here (including me) seems to think based off the many double teleport, summon teleport, dracothian tail strategy threads, then the ordering of the astrolith bearer doesn't matter because it has the exact same connotation as summoning then teleporting.

It all comes down to what is 'movement'. If everyone here says that by teleporting a unit, you are effectively moving it in the movement phase, then we need to abandon all summon/teleport strategies.

 

[Crowsfoot]

I’m probably in the wrong thread...

I understand what people are saying about the astrolith bearer. This is not the point I’m trying to make at all. I’m saying that by making the ruling that teleporting counts as movement, you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

If teleporting counts as movement in the movement phase, then you cannot summon a unit then teleport it.

If you summon a unit, it is not allowed to move in the movement phase. Taking an action, therefore, that counts as movement in the movement phase is the exact same thing as moving it in the movement phase.

So...back to what I've been saying. If that the above is not true, which no-one here (including me) seems to think based off the many double teleport, summon teleport, dracothian tail strategy threads, then the ordering of the astrolith bearer doesn't matter because it has the exact same connotation as summoning then teleporting.

It all comes down to what is 'movement'. If everyone here says that by teleporting a unit, you are effectively moving it in the movement phase, then we need to abandon all summon/teleport strategies.

I totally get your point.

 

[Aginor]

I think I get what you mean but I'd say that treating those things equally would go a bit too far.
I see it this way: teleporting counts as moving as far as abilities are concerned that happen in later phases and rely on a unit not having been moved. An example would be Saurus Guard who get bonus damage if they have not moved.
It does however not strictly count as a move so it doesn't check if that unit has been moved before for some reason. It is not happening in the movement phase so the restriction from summoning which prevents units from moving in their movement phase does not apply to teleporting, in the same way as the restriction by summoning would not apply to the Stegadon's Alpha move.

 

[Vextol]

I think I get what you mean but I'd say that treating those things equally would go a bit too far.
I see it this way: teleporting counts as moving as far as abilities are concerned that happen in later phases and rely on a unit not having been moved. An example would be Saurus Guard who get bonus damage if they have not moved.
It does however not strictly count as a move so it doesn't check if that unit has been moved before for some reason. It is not happening in the movement phase so the restriction from summoning which prevents units from moving in their movement phase does not apply to teleporting, in the same way as the restriction by summoning would not apply to the Stegadon's Alpha move.

I hear you, and that may very well be. However if that is the case and that is what GW wants, I will classify this as a ‘rules fail’ because that is so over complicated to accomplish a very simple task.

I think you would have a really hard time convincing someone who used an ability that “counts as your move in the movement phase” that while the unit has “moved” it hasn’t moved in the movement phase

That’s how I got where I am, saying that what it all is is bad terminology meaning “you can’t move in the movement phase”. I know I could very well be wrong, but I hate mid game rule arguments (which is why I’m doing this-my group is in mid discussion on this same issue) so I like to side with the ruling that makes everything easiest.

It would be better if the rules said something like “cannot move using standard movement and counts as having moved in the movement phase”. I know...too wordy, but crystal clear

It’s muddied a bit further all throughout the game. I know we are talking about seraphon here, but this issue is pervasive throughout. Kharadrons, khorne, ogors, SE, death...they all have problems based on this exact issue. Seraphon is the MOST problematic because of their teleportation, but it’s a big enough deal that GW really needs to address it. Maybe in a year...

 

[Killer Angel]

I hear you, and that may very well be. However if that is the case and that is what GW wants, I will classify this as a ‘rules fail’ because that is so over complicated to accomplish a very simple task.

(snip)

It’s muddied a bit further all throughout the game. I know we are talking about seraphon here, but this issue is pervasive throughout.

I would classify this as a minor issue, if we compare it to the mess that is "dealing with flying units"...

 

[Vextol]

It’s definitely a “minor” issue, but a pervasive one.

I don’t know the flying mess...