8th Ed. Tactics Puzzle #2

[hdctambien]

Last week I posted a scenario of a really bad situation that I got myself into because of poor choices I made on turn 1 (My Carnosaur BSB, Ancient Steg, and Bastiladon were all dead by my turn 3) So this time I'm posting up what the battlefield looked like before I did much of anything.


[pic=http://jemgames.com/rsrc/warhammer/2014-01-16.jpg]Bigger Version[/pic]



The Lizardmen list is:

Slann w/ Harmonic, Staff, and Ironcurse Icon. (Lv4 Life).
Old Blood on Cold One with Talisman of Preservation, Glittering Scales, Gold Sigil Sword, OTS
Scar Vet on Cold One with Great Weapon, Armor of Destiny
Scar Vet (in Temple Guard) BSB w/ Lr Armor, Shield, Dragonhelm, Darnstone, Sword of Striking
Priest w/ Dispel Scroll (Lv 1 Beasts)

3x 10 Skirmishers (Javs)
8 Chameleons
36 Saurus Warriors w/ Hand Weapons (Full Command)
29 Temple Guard w/ Razor Standard and Full Command (and Slann)
Ancient Stegadon

The Beastmen List is:

Doombull w/ Sword of Swift Slaying, Ramhorn Helm, Dawnstone, Gnarled Hide
Great Bray-Shaman w/ Warrior Bane, Hagtree Fetish, Talisman of Endurance (Lv4 Shadow)
Bray-Shaman w/ Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon (Lv2 Death)
Wargor BSB w/ The Beast Banner (+1 Str to unit)
Bray-Shaman /w Chalice of Dark Rain (make shooting attacks -1 to hit) (Lv2 I forget the lore)

40 Gor (with all characters except Doombull) Full Command
40 Gor w/ Full Command
2x Tuskgor Chariot
7 Minotaur (with Doombull)
5 Harpies
2x 5 Ungor Raiders (Shortbows)

The Slann had Throne, Flesh to Stone, Earthblood, and Regrowth. The priest had Wyssan's.

I don't remember all the spells the Beastmen had, but they included Pit, Pendulum, and Miasma (That's all I remember him trying to cast)

The terrain off to the right si a little swamp. Everything else is a hill or a wood.

The Beastmen have already moved and tried to cast Pit of Shades on my Temple Guard which I burned my scroll on. The Harpies charged my Chameleons Skinks which fled and were overrun.

Also, in my shooting phase he uses the Chalice of Dark Rain to make all my shooting attacks -1 to hit.

The Gor unit to the left in the picture has all of his characters in it (the picture I took is actually 2 pictures poorly stitched together, so that unit looks larger than it actually is)

The main battle lines are about 14 inches away from each other (The Beastman player basically just marched forward at full speed).

So, what would you charge (would you charge?) What would you shoot? How would you deal with that Doombull? Would you worry about the Harpies, or ignore them?

Also, would you have deployed differently?

 

[Lizardmatt]

You're cowboys look out of place.
One is banking on the ward save, the other is forcing ward save re-rolls. They don't want to ride side by side, as if they get stuck in a fight together, they old blood is gimping the scarvet.
As for the harpies, you can more or less ignore them. Run the skinks forward and throw the javs. Yeah, it's -1 for skirmish and -1 for the dark rain; which means you still hit on a 6 for poison. If you down two it forces a very bad panic check. If you kill 1, you might get another on a stand and fire (the -1 to hit only lasts for your shooting phase, you're stand and fire on his turn won't be affected by the rain).
I'd advance the temple guard and saurus into the face of his blocks, and have both cowboys join the temple guard (but not touching each other).
Try and get flesh to stone or earth blood off on the temple guard. Either of those would shift that match up greatly in your favor. The saurus should be able to win or at least be steadfast against the gor block that's lacking characters, long enough for the temple guard to come in and clean house.
I'd hold back the steggadon. Let him charge you, and count on stubborn and steadfast to hold, and then send him into which ever fight looks like it needs more help.

So that leaves minotaur on the right flank.
Skinks Selected for Glory!
March up the skinks close enough where he can't get around you, and force him to charge. Make sure you don't have another in the path of the over-run. Then march the 2nd unit of skinks in front of him again, and this time you'll have the movement to angle him away from the table center.

This will take him two of his turns to get past you, and his third turn coming back around. All 20 skinks will die in the process, but that is the will of the old ones. They buy you 3 turns to fight all his characters, and his gor blocks, which should give you enough time to break both. After that, it is damage control time. You'll have enough points where you're winning, and I'd actually consider using a cowboy to block the minotaur and take the win. Odds are the minotaur fed on skinks twice for +2 attacks (so 6 from rank and file). With Minotaur striking before you, killing on 2+, and with stomps and impact hits, I wouldn't want to risk going into combat with a block.

In a 6 turn game, blocking minotaur twice, with one of those blocks being an over-run into an unpopulated corner is more than likely game over for them.


The only situation where the minotaur get into the game in a meaningful way would be they pass the LD8 test to not charge, pass another Ld8 test to swift reform, have the chariot clear the skinks, and as a result of the first skink unit being cleared, have the 2nd unit panic. My experience has been, if you give a beastmen play a chance to get more attacks with his minotaur block, he's going to take it.

-Matt

 

[Pinktaco]

So.. here's a question. No way for us to recommend alternative items for the characters?

 

[hdctambien]

So.. here's a question. No way for us to recommend alternative items for the characters?

Of course, recommend away. Ideally I'd like to learn how to be a better player (and hopefully others can learn from my mistakes, too)

I did win this particular game, but only barely and because the Minotaur failed a critical charge and the Doombull (who left his unit and got stranded out in the open) lost combat due to a musician, broke, and was overrun.

This is what it looked like towards the end:

 

[Pinktaco]

It's jus that.. I find your characters to be sort of lacking a distinct purpose other than to sort of.. support.

If I go oldblood I have a specific idea with him, for insance I might fit him with dawnstone and armour of destiny on a CO + great weapon. That guy can soak up a lot of damage and punish whatever he's near.

Alternatively I've also tried to have one on foot with sword of bloodsheed, dragonhelm, dawnstone, light armour and shield. He still have that 1+ rerollable armour save, he just happens to also have 8 attacks along with predatory fighter. Combine that with the armour piercing banner and he'll cut through most. The armour piercing banner means that he'll be in a templeguard unit. Try and have a horde with the AP banner along with that OB. It'll be a massacre against most..

It's just that if I field an oldblood I want him to either be a wrecking ball or someone who can hold up units.

To hold up units I'd probably consider something like: glittering scales + dawnstone + crown of command on a CO. He can still have a halbard/GW along with the 1+ rerollable armour save. The thing with this guy is, unless I'm mistakening, is that against Gores (S3) they'll hit on 5+, wound on 6+ and not modify his armour, so .. even IF you roll him up against a horde which ends up getting hatred, frenzy AND have extra hand weapons we're looking at.. 15 attacks. With Hatred roughly 8 will get through. Then they have to roll 6's ~ 1.3 wounds or in other words 1-2 attacks on average with frenzy, extra hand weapons and hatred. I don't even want to use math to tell you that NOT rolling a 1 a couple of times isn't exactly rocket science, although you can be unlucky.

With crown of command the oldblood will stay put for the rest of the game. The point is you can use this guy to hold up a whole horde of Gors and just focus on the rest.

It's just examples of how to get a good oldblood that can be very effective against something specific.

Alternatively, since you've bothered to get 3 saurus characters, you could've had them all in a bus (instead of an ancient steg) and just roll face. I mean.. With great weapons we're looking at 13 S7 attacks + the COR (10S4 from the COs and 9S4 from the saurus). The points spend are probably in the same ballpark
I dunno how many points went into the minotaurs, but if they have GWs we're lookign at S7. 21 S7 attacks is pretty nasty, even against our characters, so I'd probably do something similar to what Matt suggested with the skinks - redirect those f*ckers away. Use your saurus blocks to hold up the gor blocks and just ram the bus into the side of whichever gor unit they're close to.

Otherwise I don't have much to say since Matt pretty much covered it all.

 

[hdctambien]

Thanks for the input!

If I go oldblood I have a specific idea with him, for insance I might fit him with dawnstone and armour of destiny on a CO + great weapon. That guy can soak up a lot of damage and punish whatever he's near.

Since there are a couple guys playing Dark Elves and High Elves, I tried tailoring my Old Blood to take away the Elf advantage. The Saurus' natural advantage is toughness and attacks, but they are so slow that they will get hit first. So to mitigate that (against Elfs) I use the sword to remove their To Hit rerolls and the Glittering Scales make them need 4's to 5's to hit. And OTS is nice against the new hottness Warlocks.

Of course, none of that helps me against the Beastmen.

I think putting him on foot in my TG unit is worth a try (probably dropping the OTS, if I do that though)

Alternatively, since you've bothered to get 3 saurus characters, you could've had them all in a bus (instead of an ancient steg) and just roll face

I've had lots of bad luck with CoC (mostly against High Elfs, Dark Elfs, and Empire). I do keep going back to them because I *want* them to work for me. How many CoC would you use in a bus?

I actually had moved away form having any saurus characters for a while because I don't really know how to use them well (as you can see, I'm still in that boat).

Next time I run an Old Blood I think I'll try your Sword of Bloodshed build and see how it goes.

 

[Electric Puha]

Love the tactics puzzle idea. I'm wondering why you didn't stand and shoot with the chameleons.

 

[Pinktaco]

Thanks for the input!

If I go oldblood I have a specific idea with him, for insance I might fit him with dawnstone and armour of destiny on a CO + great weapon. That guy can soak up a lot of damage and punish whatever he's near.

Since there are a couple guys playing Dark Elves and High Elves, I tried tailoring my Old Blood to take away the Elf advantage. The Saurus' natural advantage is toughness and attacks, but they are so slow that they will get hit first. So to mitigate that (against Elfs) I use the sword to remove their To Hit rerolls and the Glittering Scales make them need 4's to 5's to hit. And OTS is nice against the new hottness Warlocks.

Of course, none of that helps me against the Beastmen.

I think putting him on foot in my TG unit is worth a try (probably dropping the OTS, if I do that though)

Alternatively, since you've bothered to get 3 saurus characters, you could've had them all in a bus (instead of an ancient steg) and just roll face

I've had lots of bad luck with CoC (mostly against High Elfs, Dark Elfs, and Empire). I do keep going back to them because I *want* them to work for me. How many CoC would you use in a bus?

I actually had moved away form having any saurus characters for a while because I don't really know how to use them well (as you can see, I'm still in that boat).

Next time I run an Old Blood I think I'll try your Sword of Bloodshed build and see how it goes.

Well I just figured you had tailored your army/characters against beastmen, so fair enough.

About the bus, it's not the CORs who deal the damage, it's the characters. The CORs are there to soak up damage from artillery and what not (look out sir). For this purpose you may take something like 6 CORs.
Full command is not really needed here, but at the very least take a musician so you can easily reform.
Obviously they od have weaknesses so be mindful of what you're putting them up against. Also, some might take 4 scar vets instead.

The Bloodshed OB is IMO great for what he does, but others on the forum might not like him due to no ward save so just have that in mind.

Just for giggles you can have a death start with the slann, the said OB and the skavenpelt banner. Want to go ultra retard? The armour piercing banner. Have them in a horde. That's 37 attacks from the front rank alone, almost 43 with PF. So a total of 63 S5 amour piercing attacks. It's utterly madness and probably won't work.

I've taken him with a horde of guards and with the AP banner, no slann. 35 guards will be something like 775pts when combined with the banner and OB. It's certainly something I would do again.

Anyway.. enough with this. Just a few things to think about and I'm sure others have different ideas and I might not be right so take it like you want.