AoS Starborne without a Slann?

[Gailon]

I have a few questions here, but most of them boil down to wondering about the flexibility in constructing a Starborne list. It seems like there are some really unfortunate limitations to Starborne that prevent some flexibility?

CCP:

So if a Slann or Starmaster is general you get 1d.3. But only a Slann or Oracle can sacrifice a spell for 1d3. Doesn't that kind of limit the Starmaster as general option?

Does this make 4d3 that absolute maximum of CCP per turn? 1d3 slann, 1d3 astrolith, 1d3 slann spell, 1d3 oracle spell?

It also seems like multiple abilities require or assume a Slann.

Is it worth it to look at a Starborne list without a Slann? Or just stick to coalesced for a Slann less list?

I am also wondering if people find the Engine of the Gods still worth it without a Slann? 2d6 has a much higher risk of taking damage and no chance for summoning.

 

[ILKAIN]

I have a few questions here, but most of them boil down to wondering about the flexibility in constructing a Starborne list. It seems like there are some really unfortunate limitations to Starborne that prevent some flexibility?

CCP:

So if a Slann or Starmaster is general you get 1d.3. But only a Slann or Oracle can sacrifice a spell for 1d3. Doesn't that kind of limit the Starmaster as general option?

Does this make 4d3 that absolute maximum of CCP per turn? 1d3 slann, 1d3 astrolith, 1d3 slann spell, 1d3 oracle spell?

It also seems like multiple abilities require or assume a Slann.

Is it worth it to look at a Starborne list without a Slann? Or just stick to coalesced for a Slann less list?

I am also wondering if people find the Engine of the Gods still worth it without a Slann? 2d6 has a much higher risk of taking damage and no chance for summoning.

there was an entire chain devoted to this conversation. I recommend searching the forums before asking questions like this.

I will see if I can find the chain and link it below

 

[ILKAIN]

https://www.lustria-online.com/threads/calebs-seraphon-strategy-videos.24790/

you can start with the summoning video. @Caleb ex nihilo does good ones so enjoy

 

[Gailon]

there was an entire chain devoted to this conversation. I recommend searching the forums before asking questions like this.

I will see if I can find the chain and link it below

Man, I tried. I searched for ccp slann, summoning points, most summoning points and just couldn't find something clear. Which seemed odd to me, because it definitely seemed like something that should have been covered.

I did find a chain arguing about whether summoning was 'dead' or not, and the table of the point values for the various summons. I could infer a lot from that discussion, but it wasn't really direct. And the video that is linked, but I can't always watch videos.

Sorry to be repetitive, I did think it was weird I couldn't find a conversation on this.

EDIT: this is what I found: https://www.lustria-online.com/threads/so-whats-about-summoning.24475/#post-322071

Not sure it really addresses the questions on point as people debate summoning.

It doesn't directly talk about the maximum CCP you can get. I don't see a discussion of the conflict with starseer general but not being able to get CCP from a starseer giving up a spell. So if you have a starseer general, you almost certainly still need a Slann in the force?

It seems like that discussion suggests it's viable to play starborne without really benefiting from summoning, is that true? Just play it and ignore CCP because you won't even get to 6 without the slann.

 

[Canas]

It's viable to play without a slann-general as summoning has already been limited to the point it's no longer a real core mechanic unless you specificly build around it. So the difference is fairly minimal. Unless you're going for a full summoning strategy that 1 D3 shouldn't make a particularly big difference.

Having said that, there's no real benefit to using a different general in a starborne army, so you know, why bother. You're going to be bringing a slann anyway you might as well just take that extra D3.

 

[Grotpunter]

I have a few questions here, but most of them boil down to wondering about the flexibility in constructing a Starborne list. It seems like there are some really unfortunate limitations to Starborne that prevent some flexibility?

CCP:

So if a Slann or Starmaster is general you get 1d.3. But only a Slann or Oracle can sacrifice a spell for 1d3. Doesn't that kind of limit the Starmaster as general option?

Does this make 4d3 that absolute maximum of CCP per turn? 1d3 slann, 1d3 astrolith, 1d3 slann spell, 1d3 oracle spell?

It also seems like multiple abilities require or assume a Slann.

Is it worth it to look at a Starborne list without a Slann? Or just stick to coalesced for a Slann less list?

I am also wondering if people find the Engine of the Gods still worth it without a Slann? 2d6 has a much higher risk of taking damage and no chance for summoning.

You could technically bring Kroak, Slann, Oracle and Astrolith for 5D3 CCP per round but IMO you are sacrificing too much and tying too many points in heroes. For a serious list I think 4D3 is the absolute maximum you can expect. Kroak + Oracle or Kroak + Slann is fine from my experience.

Im not sure why you are looking to build a list specifically without a Slann. Is it because you dont own any? I dont think I have built a single list without Kroak, simply because the CP generation and boardwide unbind/dispell (and CCP in Starborne) are rather amazing. Comet’s Call is quite good chip damage against a number of armies and there are a couple of very useful Slann spells, mostly Stellar Tempest but Celestial Apothesis (heal) isnt bad either - If you run multiple casters Celestial Equilibrium is nice too. Even in Coalesced I would have Kroak too - Both Koatl and Thunderlizard want those CPs to spam buffs.

Im really not fond of the Engine of the Gods - It costs too much IMO compared to what you get. The odds of getting the good stuff is way too low compared to getting the bad stuff. The MW output seems weak and the aoe heal is questionable how useful it will be.

 

[Gailon]

You could technically bring Kroak, Slann, Oracle and Astrolith for 5D3 CCP per round but IMO you are sacrificing too much and tying too many points in heroes. For a serious list I think 4D3 is the absolute maximum you can expect. Kroak + Oracle or Kroak + Slann is fine from my experience.

Im not sure why you are looking to build a list specifically without a Slann. Is it because you dont own any? I dont think I have built a single list without Kroak, simply because the CP generation and boardwide unbind/dispell (and CCP in Starborne) are rather amazing. Comet’s Call is quite good chip damage against a number of armies and there are a couple of very useful Slann spells, mostly Stellar Tempest but Celestial Apothesis (heal) isnt bad either - If you run multiple casters Celestial Equilibrium is nice too. Even in Coalesced I would have Kroak too - Both Koatl and Thunderlizard want those CPs to spam buffs.

Im really not fond of the Engine of the Gods - It costs too much IMO compared to what you get. The odds of getting the good stuff is way too low compared to getting the bad stuff. The MW output seems weak and the aoe heal is questionable how useful it will be.

Thanks! That's really helpful. Right now I don't own a Slann or Kroak, and they are impossible to find available anywhere. Also, the small playgroup I'm with right now does a lot of team and narrative play. This makes for a lot of fun in bringing a wide variety of lists to the table. I have stuck with coalesced for Seraphon so far, but LoSaT looks super fun, so I really appreciate the answer.

Although from an optimized perspective, I see the point about Kroak. I always want more command points, and the starpriest just does not generate them reliably at all.