Star Trek vs. Star Wars (and a collection of memes)

[NIGHTBRINGER]

But then we are talking about a franchise that has force projection, pulling Star Destroyers from orbit, and similar stuff. In that context I wouldn't call her overpowered.

First off, the force projection was a Last Jedi creation, let's not get into that. In what film did they pull Star Destroyers from orbit? If we go into the EU there are a lot of extreme demonstration sof overpowered individuals. The video games are even worse.

Even still, those characters had to earn those abilities through many years of hard training and study. Included in that were countless failures and major setbacks. I'll use the Darth Bane trilogy as an example again. Bane demonstrates some extremely powerful mastery of the force, however, we see how he slowly learned and acquired those skills. They weren't just gifted to him by an external political agenda. He suffered. He failed. He was wounded. He was humbled. And out of it all he grew. Given the rules of the story universe, Bane's abilities make sense but Rey's progression does not. It's hard to identify with it, because even in real life we don't learn real life skills that way.

How do you make the dichotomy between a badass hero and a Mary Sue/Marty Stu, based on that flawed definition?

Simple, if the character is (nearly) universally appreciated, like Ripley or Sarah Connor, they are likely badass heroes. If hoards of people spend countless hours debating and arguing (on forums, via YouTube videos, via fan backlash) a character's Mary Sue status, chances are there is something to it.

How come we don't see these debates raging on for characters like Brienne of Tarth or Arya Stark from GoT? The answer is that they are well written and not Mary Sues.

The important thing IMO is: are powers justified within the setting?
We don't know yet because we don't know the whole story yet. So it is probably too early to say. But we know that something special awoke in Rey. We just don't know what it is yet.
As for her mechanical prowess: scavenging and mechanical work on star ships is what she has been doing for.. 15 years or so by the time the audience meets her. So her being good with that is completely natural to me.

Of course they could retroactively go back and add things in to try bring some sense to it, but that is already a poor story telling recipe. That is placing a band aid over a wound, rather than avoiding the wound int he first place. This whole trilogy has been so poorly planned out. JJ creates a movie, and Rian Johnson ignores (shits on) it when making its sequel. Now JJ will probably (just a guess) do the same.

The movies should be able to stand on their own. Rey's powers are simply not justified. She learns at a rate that far out paces Luke or Anakin (and I believe I remember reading that George Lucas stated that Luke became the most powerful force user).

We do know that something special awoke in Rey... Disney identity politics (the most powerful force power of them all). So powerful in fact that it was able to turn a Star Wars movie (Solo) to a losing financial endeavor. Prior to Disney nobody was able to pull that one off.

As for her mechanical prowess, undoubtedly she would have learned quite a bit through her experiences growing up. However, Han has far greater experience than she does, especially when dealing with the Millennium Falcon. This is a prime example of her being a Mary Sue, there is no legitimate rationale provided in the movies that would justify her demonstrating greater proficiency repairing the Falcon than Han (who has worked and modified that particular ship for decades).

Underwhelming force powers:
I have to re watch the movie but right now I cannot recall either her or Kylo pushing, throwing, choking, jumping, or moving with Force speed.
We see them pull and we see a mind trick. We also see Kylo stopping a blaster bolt. I call that underwhelming.

• Kylo stopping the blaster bolt was impressive and previously unseen.
• Rey lifting and throwing aside all those boulders was extremely powerful and far beyond what her training should allow. The ease at which she completed that task is greater than we have yet to see in the movies.
• Kylo was also able to pull information from people's minds.
• Jedi mind trick after no training

Kylo uses force choke:

So it is underwhelming because we don't see high jumping and force speed (the latter of which isn't nearly so exploited in any of the movies)?

Kylo is far less capable in using the force than he would like everybody to think.
So ni, he shouldn't have easily defeated Rey while being in a mentally unstable state and wounded by Chewie's shot. He isn't a Sith Lord, he is an impostor.
He shares one important trait with Rey: He is strong, but he isn't properly trained.

While agree that he might not be fully trained (not like anybody can be fully trained anyways, there is always more to learn) but his training is infinitely more than hers at that point. She has received no training at that point and he has trained under both Luke and Snoke.

I understand he wasn't in the greatest state of mind, (killing his father, the battle between light and dark) but it still doesn't justify it. Her state of mind, although better than his, would also be less than ideal (thrown into a warzone for the first time ever, facing off against a practiced force user, seeing Han die, seeing Finn get brutalized).

Admittedly in this specific situation you could argue that she is not overpowered but only if you simultaneously argue that Kylo is completely incompetent. Perhaps it is a mixture of the two and I don't know which bothers me more (especially seeing as he is now the primary villain unless they bring Snoke back).

As for the mind trick:
The scene before Rey attempts it we see Kylo trying to question her. She feels how to counter that mind trick and learns how to do it that way. Sure she learns it quickly, but when I saw the movie it made perfect sense to me, and it still does. Of course it works a lot better against a dumb Stormtrooper.

That's not how people learn things... not in the real world or in the Star Wars universe.

I've seen Messi play soccer, but that doesn't mean that I can go out and replicate what he can do. And I've had far more experience playing and practicing soccer than Rey has dabbling in the force.

No Star Wars character learns things so easily. So it is not an argument of whether the ability itself is overpowered, but rather how the character can perform it without any learning or justification. When we first saw Obi-Wan use the Jedi mind trick it wasn't overpowered because he has had the time and opportunity to learn it, but Rey has not, and that is why it is overpowered. It's a free skill that comes too easily.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I did certainly NOT insult your country. Not did I ever insult any other country, as that is against everything I believe in.
What I know is that Google's results in English speaking countries are sometimes quite different than the others. It probably is an American thing, (Canada being collateral damage) but there are numerous examples for that. I sometimes use a proxy to disguise as an American to see what English language Google does, and I have noticed very different results on numerous occasions. Thats why I do it, the results vary extremely in some cases and I want to know about it.
Mostly it is about product placement or placing other Google-driven services on top, something not allowed in the EU (And Google has been fined for it, IIRC even more than once) but sometimes it isn't. The Internet (and Google especially) is a lot less universal than many people think.

Google might very well alter their search results based on the country of use, but it isn't the case that they believe what you say they believe, and I quote: "a country where obviously Google thinks people are too dumb to click on a link or understand the definition of a word if it is more than one sentence long."

You have no justification in making that statement. The fact that you are trying to justify and explain it away is more telling than the actually statement itself. "...a country where obviously Google thinks people are too dumb to click on a link..." are your words... not mine... not Google's. I can tell when I'm being played and the situation is being manipulated. Maybe you wrote them out of anger, maybe you didn't really mean them, maybe they don't represent your core values, but they are your words.

"Canon Sues" (Mary Sues that arent side characters) being Captain America

Rey feels like far more of a Mary Sue than Captain America (other than the name of course ). He isn't nearly as powerful as her (in relation to their respective universes; his abilities are meek compared to many of his enemies and allies), his abilities seem more justified and we see him fail and persevere (that is why he was chosen to receive the super solider serum).

While he is pretty much "all good", we do see him travel down some questionable paths in the sequel films.

He does possess some of the traits though, but they feel more justified and in line with the story.

James T. Kirk

In some ways, but he is highly reliant on those around him. He doesn't possess any supreme powers (except over the females of all species... I'll concede that one) though he does always win the day. He does show far more vulnerability throughout the series than Rey does.

Bella from Twilight

Maybe... I've never watched any of those movies or read any of those books.



Ultimately, this is a tricky discussion for us to have since we don't even agree on the definition of Mary Sue. I think we are arguing for different things.

My primary argument, ignoring the term Mary Sue,

• is that she possesses powers that she has not earned and are not justified (hence OP)
• she performs tasks too easily and never experiences significant failures or setback
• she never has to suffer in order to grow, she just learns them on the fly
• her in-universe abilities are derived directly and forcefully by Disney's political agenda

 

[Aginor]

Look, I agree with you that the storytelling in TLJ is rushed and in some ways not very good. I agree that many things are happening a bit too quickly, but I don't agree with that being necessarily a bad thing.

One of the main problems with the trend of seeing Mary Sue characters everywhere is that authors have too much fear of making a strong hero, so they create boringly mediocre average joe characters or forced anti heroes.
The result is bland one-dimensional characters like in Rogue One. I'll take Rey above them anytime.

In what film did they pull Star Destroyers from orbit? I

In one of the novels that were released shortly before or after TFA, the one that describes the battle of Jakku. There is point of view from an imperial officer in which he describes Luke floating in space pulling Star Destroyers onto the planet. Pretty weird stuff, but canon.

Simple, if the character is (nearly) universally appreciated, like Ripley or Sarah Connor, they are likely badass heroes. If hoards of people spend countless hours debating and arguing (on forums, via YouTube videos, via fan backlash) a character's Mary Sue status, chances are there is something to it.

I disagree here. The fact that a group of people likes to argue about a certain character or not does not point into one or the other direction. Marty Stus are a great example because there are SO many in comics books and old movies, but back then it was another time, so outside of very special fan circles nobody talks about it at all.

How come we don't see these debates raging on for characters like Brienne of Tarth or Arya Stark from GoT? The answer is that they are well written and not Mary Sues.

In the movies or in the TV show? I agree that those are rather well written, but... well, this isn't a GoT thread, but let me just put this in here anyway: they are quite different from their book selves, for better or worse. Brienne is critisized for suffering from a phenomenon called "adaptive attractiveness" and so do other characters in the show. Some fans (including me) don't like it.

We do know that something special awoke in Rey... Disney identity politics (the most powerful force power of them all). So powerful in fact that it was able to turn a Star Wars movie (Solo) to a losing financial endeavor. Prior to Disney nobody was able to pull that one off.

Not going into the political stuff. Yes I know it isn't far fetched and it is a hobby of yours, but I am not a political person and I think that despite the existing influence it isn't as bad as you make it seem.

Kylo stopping the blaster bolt was impressive and previously unseen.

It was. I botched the formatting and also the wording on that paragraph (writing on my phone and also switching stuff around).
The "underwhelming" sentenceshould be before that. it is important for me to name both sides.

Kylo uses force choke:

Right. I forgot about that scene.

That's not how people learn things... not in the real world or in the Star Wars universe.

I've seen Messi play soccer, but that doesn't mean that I can go out and replicate what he can do. And I've had far more experience playing and practicing soccer than Rey has dabbling in the force.

I see where you come from, but I don't think that's a fully fitting comparison.
Rey is exceptionally strong and talented in the Force, she is a natural. A person with that kind of skill (and you are right, she seems to be the first one in canon, although I think I remember some EU character that was similar, and Ezra from Rebels also qualifies from time to time IMO) might be able to pull it off.
Think of Messi watching Ronaldinho perform a cool trick and picking it up quickly.

Apart from that: I think the mind trick scene was very well done (and also hilarious if you know that the Stormtrooper in the scene was Daniel Craig) and judging by the sounds I heard people in the cinema make I guess other people liked it as well.

After all Star Wars is an entertainment product, why not have some over-the-top stuff in it if it js entertaining? I think there are hardly any movies that are over-analyzed that intensely, which is a pity as it only makes strong feelings.

That even includes the question:
Let's assume Rey is a Mary Sue (by any definition): why would that necessarily be a bad thing? Mary Sues and other sub optimal characters are not that uncommon, why is it worse for Star Wars than for everything else? Star Wars isn't exactly known for good writing or deep characters to begin with. That shouldn't take away enjoyment, except for people with way too high expectations.


As for Han knowing the Falcon so well....
Han is old and hasn't seen the Falcon in quite some years. And to be honest he doesn't look all too competent to me when working on it in the OT either. He is more of a pilot than a mechanic I guess. Rey might even have worked on it (or similar ships) during her time on Jakku and scavenging and repairing stuff is pretty much all she did there (unlike Han), so it didn't struck me as odd that the can do that very well and at least partly better than Han can. No wonder he likes her and offers her a job after he learns about that skill set.

 

[Aginor]

One last word to the Google thing:

I can tell when I'm being played and the situation is being manipulated.

Sorry but it seems that in that case you could not, as I was not trying to manipulate you.

I reckon that whether I did want to insult Canada or not (I didn't and I think I explained that clearly), you obviously felt insulted by it.
That was not in any way what I wanted to achieve, and I apologize for how I made you feel.
I am a huge care bear, so when in doubt I see that I have to do something about a situation, even though I do not understand everyone's problems with it. So I apologize for my poor choice of words.

The fact stands though:
When googling for a definition of Mary Sue on German Google ("Mary Sue Begriffserklärung") I do not get the oversimplified, source-less dictionary entry, but a meaningful list of links.
And since I do know that Google has its part in making the Internet both a better and a worse place (depending who and where you are) by reacting differently to users from different countries, I still accuse them of not doing this correctly and creating a discriminating user experience, this time with the English page getting a significantly worse top result.

 

[Aginor]

As for Captain America:
Note that the critique about Cap being a Canon-Sue is from the _comics_, not the movies.
The Marvel movies tone down a lot of the over the top stuff from the comics, which is a good thing IMO.

My primary argument, ignoring the term Mary Sue,

• is that she possesses powers that she has not earned and are not justified (hence OP)
• she performs tasks too easily and never experiences significant failures or setback
• she never has to suffer in order to grow, she just learns them on the fly
• her in-universe abilities are derived directly and forcefully by Disney's political agenda

Ok, getting away from the term is the right step I think. Let's see if we can work from there.


Let's see if we can narrow down the OP-ness of her powers and if there is a plausible justification for each of them.

She has four main skill sets so far it seems:

1. The Force.
Her being a natural in the Force and being scarily strong (Luke has met Obi-Wan, Yoda, Palpatine and Vader but still says he has only seen such raw power twice, in Kylo and in Rey) is a main plot point of TLJ. Whether we like it or not, it will also be a main plot point in EP9 and only then may we learn about the full background. I cannot say if that is justified or not, because we don't know what exactly she is. I hope we will learn why that makes her learn (at least some) force powers with what seems to be ease.

2. Melee combat.
In TFA we see that she knows to use her staff pretty well. Something that is to be expected as it seems the scavengers have a rough life there. Her life depends on it.
I can tell from Internet and real life experience that when you can already use one melee weapon, learning another one by far isn't as hard to do than from scratch, so her learning the Lightsaber quickly is something I would expect her to. She still looked pretty bad against Kylo in TFA so I guess she isn't _that_ fast after all.
Of course her force abilities help her a lot in melee combat. She is faster, stronger, and has more endurance than a normal person.

3. Mechanical skill.
This is the only one that probably isn't too dependent from the Force, although feeling your environment with closed eyes is probably a skill you can use when being elbow deep in a machine trying to build/repair/enhance it. Anakin could build C3PO from scrap parts in something that looks like a 1950s workshop, in his spare time, while being 10 years old. I think that is way less believable than what 19 (I think) year old Rey shows us in TFA/TLJ.
That kind of thing being her job since forever is more than enough justification for her skills in my opinion.

4. Piloting.
Not as good as Poe but very good. I think that knowing about space ships helps piloting a lot (a reason why real life pilots have to be quite tech savvy and have to learn a lot of technical details about their planes, same for astronauts and their space vessels). From the OT and the prequels we also know that the fast reflexes of Jedi help immensely with piloting. For the that's enough of an explanation.


EDIT:
I'll make a post about your other points tomorrow or so. Except about the political one that is.

 

[ravagekitteh]

First off, the force projection was a Last Jedi creation, let's not get into that.

Not a personal attack but:
Exhibit A: The Jedi Path, my own copy of an official Star Wars book, released in 2010, five years before the Force Awakens


Exhibit B: Contents of said book. Focus on Jedi Knight section


Exhibit C: The introduction to Alter Abilities, a section detailing various force abilities used by Jedi that allow the alteration of the environment


Exhibit D: Description of the ‘Doppelgänger’ Force ability, which allows for the projection of an image of oneself using the force


So, whether it supports your argument or not, can everybody please shut up about how the Last Jedi made up force projection and how it ‘has no basis in Legends Canon’ or anything else!?

In one of the novels that were released shortly before or after TFA, the one that describes the battle of Jakku. There is point of view from an imperial officer in which he describes Luke floating in space pulling Star Destroyers onto the planet. Pretty weird stuff, but canon.

I’m assuming the book you’re talking about is Aftermath: Empire’s End and I have that one as well, but I can’t find any quotes about Luke Skywalker dragging ships down with the force. What actually happened is that the Rebels had an advanced warship with very powerful tractor beams. When it went down, it latched them onto the Empire’s Super Star Destroyer, dragging it into the atmosphere with it and downing it. It’s an awesome moment that if it ever appears in films, would probably be on par with the Holdo manoever, but less supposedly canon breaking. If there is such a quote, I would assume it’s an Imperial Officer seeing it an panicking in a kind of “Oh f*** oh f*** Luke’s dragging our ships down” manner.

Sorry, I can deal with you two ripping each other’s throats out, but if one of you says something canonically wrong then it’s my turn to be furious! I’ve been dosed with plenty of gamma radiation as well, so don’t make me angry - you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry

But seriously though, this debate is why we can’t have nice things

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

First off, let me say that keeping up with this thread is getting to be hard work. I post a lot and it is overwhelming even for me. I just checked in on it and there are 4 gigantic posts awaiting reply. (I guess this is how my uber posting can feel for others... karma! )

Look, I agree with you that the storytelling in TLJ is rushed and in some ways not very good. I agree that many things are happening a bit too quickly, but I don't agree with that being necessarily a bad thing

Whether it is good or bad on a personal level is 100% subjective. However, overall it split the fan base and that cannot be considered a good thing. I maintain that TLJ backlash contributed greatly to Solo's failure. It was not the only contributing factor, but I would say it was significant.

One of the main problems with the trend of seeing Mary Sue characters everywhere is that authors have too much fear of making a strong hero, so they create boringly mediocre average joe characters or forced anti heroes.
The result is bland one-dimensional characters like in Rogue One. I'll take Rey above them anytime.

I will agree that Rey is more likable than the Rogue One characters (at least for me) other than K2, who was pure gold. Rey has some positive attributes in that she is passionate and driven, but they just went way over the top. I want to see them build her up. I want to experience tension as she goes up against threats that seem overwhelming. At this point going into IX, there is no tension as she can stomp any of the villains.

I disagree here. The fact that a group of people likes to argue about a certain character or not does not point into one or the other direction. Marty Stus are a great example because there are SO many in comics books and old movies, but back then it was another time, so outside of very special fan circles nobody talks about it at all.

If it were limited to a few people I would be inclined to agree. However, when there is so much backlash and criticism, there must be at least something behind it. As the expression goes: "where there is smoke there is fire". In the case of people discussing Rey as a "Mary Sue" there is not only smoke but also the equivalent of a thermonuclear explosion.

In the movies or in the TV show? I agree that those are rather well written, but... well, this isn't a GoT thread, but let me just put this in here anyway: they are quite different from their book selves, for better or worse. Brienne is critisized for suffering from a phenomenon called "adaptive attractiveness" and so do other characters in the show. Some fans (including me) don't like it.

Silly me, I should have clarified that. I meant in the show. I have only read the first of the novels.

In the show, nobody really complains about those two being Mary Sues. Of course, the GoT show is far better planned and written than TLJ. I think at the very least we can agree on that.

Not going into the political stuff. Yes I know it isn't far fetched and it is a hobby of yours, but I am not a political person and I think that despite the existing influence it isn't as bad as you make it seem.

I have many hobbies, but I've never considered political discussions to be one of them. Up until a couple of years ago I never even followed it, but now I have admittedly gone down that rabbit hole (and predominantly American politics and not Canadian, which is odd)

There is one thing I do want to make perfectly clear, as much I explore political topics, I don't want external politics in my movies and TV shows (unless that is the actual subject matter of the movie/show, which I probably won't watch anyways). Movies and shows (and video games too) are supposed to be an escape from the real world, not an indoctrination tool. I fully admit that I find it tremendously annoying and frustrating. It obviously doesn't effect everyone the same, but the more I explore the topic, the more evident it becomes to me. I think it is far more prevalent than you give it credit, so many movies and shows have embraced it.... Star Wars, Dr. Who, Star Trek, Ghostbusters (this one is the most blatant) and in a couple of weeks the MCU. Whenever I see it happening I instantly want that film/movie to fail so that hopefully the studios get the message and stop ruining the franchises. I got more enjoyment out of seeing Solo lose money than I got from the film itself... I never thought I would ever say that about a Star Wars movie!

Anyways, I understand that it is not your thing, however it is, in my opinion it is the fundamental reason why Rey is the way she is. That is the driving force behind it so it does unfortunately become integral to this discussion.

(writing on my phone and also switching stuff around).

You wrote all those posts on your phone. Damn that is impressive; that would take me a billion years to write on my phone!

Rey is exceptionally strong and talented in the Force, she is a natural.

But so are other characters and they still had to learn it "the hard way". Anakin should be the preeminent natural, and while it takes him less time to learn things than other characters, things that take him years to learn are mastered by Rey instantly (consider how short of a time passes between the start of TFA and the end of TLJ). The same goes for Luke, who according to George Lucas becomes the strongest force user. He takes MUCH longer to learn things than Rey.

Your point on a specific EU character might very well be correct. While the EU contains some of my favorite stories (Bane trilogy and Thrawn trilogy) it also contains some of the worst (although not as bad as the holiday special of course). There extreme examples of overpowered things, be it near-invincible ships (Suncrusher) or force users that can make a Sun go supernova using the force. Some of these extra powers are cool, but others are pretty bad. But that doesn't justify making Rey bad as well.

Think of Messi watching Ronaldinho perform a cool trick and picking it up quickly.

Yes, but Messi spent a lifetime learning how to play soccer, learning a new trick simply builds upon that already well established foundation. Your example would be more akin to Rey spending a lifetime mastering the force and then relatively quickly picking up a new force skill. If Messi were Rey, he wouldn't have trained at all in his lifetime and wouldn't even need Ronaldhinho to show him the trick... he would just figure it out on the spot.

After all Star Wars is an entertainment product, why not have some over-the-top stuff in it if it js entertaining?

For a couple of reasons...

• it is hurting the story telling (how can any villain pose a threat to her)
• it is not respecting the Star Wars legacy and pre-established universe (breaking all the rules)
• less people are satisfied with it, so less people are enjoying it (splitting the fan base)
• it is driven by outside political motivations (this is well documented at this point)
• it is actually costing them money (Solo box office failure, poor toy/merchandise sales)
• it might irrevocably damage/ruin the franchise

Let's assume Rey is a Mary Sue (by any definition): why would that necessarily be a bad thing? Mary Sues and other sub optimal characters are not that uncommon, why is it worse for Star Wars than for everything else?

It is worse because more people are invested in Star Wars. If they ruin some other series that I don't watch then I don't care at all, but because I love Star Wars it is far more impactful for me (and for the many people that feel as I do). I'm sure there are plenty of other shitty Mary Sue characters, but I don't care to engage with them so it is a moot point (from my point of view).

Also, Star Wars is a pre-existing franchise. If Disney wants to produce some brand new story with Mary Sues, then nobody will complain. Nothing is lost in that scenario (except Disney profits). But when something we love is damaged, it upsets us. (and I recognize that is not damaged for everyone, I speak the perspective of half the fandom that feels that it is)

As for Han knowing the Falcon so well....
Han is old and hasn't seen the Falcon in quite some years. And to be honest he doesn't look all too competent to me when working on it in the OT either. He is more of a pilot than a mechanic I guess. Rey might even have worked on it (or similar ships) during her time on Jakku and scavenging and repairing stuff is pretty much all she did there (unlike Han), so it didn't struck me as odd that the can do that very well and at least partly better than Han can. No wonder he likes her and offers her a job after he learns about that skill set.

I never viewed Han as being incompetent. Chewie is supposedly a competent mechanic, and Han is able to straighten him out and correct his mistakes. Plus Han made a bunch of special modifications himself across the years, he would know those systems inside and out.

Rey is a junker, she collects parts from crashed ships. It is quite a bold assumption to think that she has had the opportunity to work on the Falcon for any significant amount of time (and even then, she isn't even old enough to have worked on it for as long as Han).

Another classic example of them crapping on the beloved OT characters (Han, Luke, Admiral Ackbar) in favor of a new character that people don't love nearly as much (or at all). By all means, the new character can be made to shine, but don't make it as the expense of the older characters.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Sorry but it seems that in that case you could not, as I was not trying to manipulate you.

I reckon that whether I did want to insult Canada or not (I didn't and I think I explained that clearly), you obviously felt insulted by it.
That was not in any way what I wanted to achieve, and I apologize for how I made you feel.
I am a huge care bear, so when in doubt I see that I have to do something about a situation, even though I do not understand everyone's problems with it. So I apologize for my poor choice of words.

Honestly, let's just leave this behind. It isn't helping the situation and we are obviously not going to agree on it. I could very easily go on debating it, but what is the point? It isn't even on topic and can only lead to further fruitless arguing. I'm willing to let it go if you are.

1. The Force.
Her being a natural in the Force and being scarily strong (Luke has met Obi-Wan, Yoda, Palpatine and Vader but still says he has only seen such raw power twice, in Kylo and in Rey) is a main plot point of TLJ. Whether we like it or not, it will also be a main plot point in EP9 and only then may we learn about the full background. I cannot say if that is justified or not, because we don't know what exactly she is. I hope we will learn why that makes her learn (at least some) force powers with what seems to be ease.

That is precisely what I hate about the whole thing. I think that was a terrible move, they just shit on everything Star Wars. How did Rain Johnson not see that this would piss off the fans? The whole thing is a mess.

First off, Kylo has been shown to be pretty incompetent. I hate that he is being touted as being naturally stronger than the likes of Yoda, Palpatine or Vader. They might very well come up with some explanation, but that doesn't mean it will be a good one... it will just shift one argument to another.

Secondly, Luke and Anakin are said to be the strongest force users by George Lucas (although Anakin can't live up to his full potential because of his severe injuries and cybernetics). Nothing is more canon than the word of George Lucas. Disney may have bought the legal rights to the franchise, but Lucas created it. Disney can legally change whatever they want in the saga, but they can't change the heart of the fans or the true canon.

2. Melee combat.
In TFA we see that she knows to use her staff pretty well. Something that is to be expected as it seems the scavengers have a rough life there. Her life depends on it.
I can tell from Internet and real life experience that when you can already use one melee weapon, learning another one by far isn't as hard to do than from scratch, so her learning the Lightsaber quickly is something I would expect her to. She still looked pretty bad against Kylo in TFA so I guess she isn't _that_ fast after all.
Of course her force abilities help her a lot in melee combat. She is faster, stronger, and has more endurance than a normal person.

Firstly, she was not demonstrated to have any formalized training with her staff. She may be somewhat competent with it, but its not like she has had years of real training or a teacher/master to show her the proper techniques. Also, while skill with one weapon does help lessen the learning curve to master another, it isn't an absolute and instant transfer of mastery. Some elements transfer well, like timing and judging distance, but others have to be painstakingly learned. Sword fighting has a fairly steep learning curve (as compared to something like a spear for instance) Plus, Kylo had direct training with the lightsaber (under two masters no less), his skills should have been honed to the proper usage of that particular weapon.

Her force abilities would indeed help her against an ordinary person, but she is not fighting an ordinary person. Kylo's skills should be far better developed at that particular point in time, so that should actually work against her.

3. Mechanical skill.
This is the only one that probably isn't too dependent from the Force, although feeling your environment with closed eyes is probably a skill you can use when being elbow deep in a machine trying to build/repair/enhance it. Anakin could build C3PO from scrap parts in something that looks like a 1950s workshop, in his spare time, while being 10 years old. I think that is way less believable than what 19 (I think) year old Rey shows us in TFA/TLJ.
That kind of thing being her job since forever is more than enough justification for her skills in my opinion.

Anakin was skilled as a child, but they didn't undermine a beloved character to demonstrate it. Equally important, he didn't instantly outwit someone with decades of experience on a craft he has no experience with. The Falcon is Han's ship. He has had if for decades. He has worked on it for decades. He has personally modified it countless times. I'm not arguing that she shouldn't be good mechanically, only that she shouldn't be able to upstage him after spending so little time on the ship.

4. Piloting.
Not as good as Poe but very good. I think that knowing about space ships helps piloting a lot (a reason why real life pilots have to be quite tech savvy and have to learn a lot of technical details about their planes, same for astronauts and their space vessels). From the OT and the prequels we also know that the fast reflexes of Jedi help immensely with piloting. For the that's enough of an explanation.

For all we know, that might be one of the first times she has flown a ship. At least that is what they have shown us (of course they could go back and change it to suit their needs). At least Anakin had years of pod-racing experience.

Give Rey a few more minutes and she'll school Poe at will.


It comes down to the fact that she is AMAZING at ALL of these things. And she is AMAZING at them near instantly, with little to no training (other than the mechanical skills, which is established, but not to the point where she should be able to school Han so easily).

Not a personal attack but:
Exhibit A: The Jedi Path, my own copy of an official Star Wars book, released in 2010, five years before the Force Awakens

Sorry, I should have specified in the context of the movies. Once we go into the EU it becomes an absolute and utter shit-storm of every possible power one can imagine. Anything goes in the EU. However, the movies have typically been much more grounded in terms of power level.

Your argument is justified and valid; it is my fault for not expressing my point more clearly!

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER LEAVE US UNSUPERVISED!!



As much as I love a good debate and can even take enjoyment from a slightly heated one, your interjection of a bit of levity in here was a welcome one. May the force be with you.

I aim to please!

And in the words of the legendary Sir Alec Guinness:

Not a personal attack but:
Exhibit A: The Jedi Path, my own copy of an official Star Wars book, released in 2010, five years before the Force Awakens
View attachment 51779

Exhibit B: Contents of said book. Focus on Jedi Knight section
View attachment 51780

Exhibit C: The introduction to Alter Abilities, a section detailing various force abilities used by Jedi that allow the alteration of the environment
View attachment 51781

Exhibit D: Description of the ‘Doppelgänger’ Force ability, which allows for the projection of an image of oneself using the force
View attachment 51783

So, whether it supports your argument or not, can everybody please shut up about how the Last Jedi made up force projection and how it ‘has no basis in Legends Canon’ or anything else!?

I can confirm this, I have a copy of it as well - indeed I have copies of all the Titan Star Wars Books so far, including the Rebel Files that incorporated Rogue One. In fact I was thinking about the 'doppelganger' power that came from the Jedi Path when I first saw it in Episode VIII, which is probably why I thought it was a good move when most others are complaining that it's bad

 

[Aginor]

Not much time right now to post, just a short post about two things:

- Rey's pilot skills:
The novelization of TFA explains that she has experience flying, and I read that another one of the novels says that she actually spent a lot of time in a simulator.

- @ravagekitteh this blog article makes reference to the scene I meant. I think I heard it somewhere on Youtube, I haven't read the book.
https://geektyrant.com/news/new-sta...-can-pull-down-star-destroyers-with-the-force

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

- Rey's pilot skills:
The novelization of TFA explains that she has experience flying, and I read that another one of the novels says that she actually spent a lot of time in a simulator.

Question is, where would the simulator be located? I don't remember seeing anything on a primitive, lifeless world like Jakku that looked like a simulator training academy or anything like that.

- @ravagekitteh this blog article makes reference to the scene I meant. I think I heard it somewhere on Youtube, I haven't read the book.
https://geektyrant.com/news/new-sta...-can-pull-down-star-destroyers-with-the-force

Referring to this dispute, I think there was also some prequel lore (can't remember if it's now legends or canon) where Count Dooku used the Force to pull General Grievous' Khaleesh starship to its destruction on a particular planet, mortally wounding Grievous, and Dooku had the remaining living parts of him installed into a droid body so that he became a cyborg, and then informing him that the Jedi did it or something like that to gain his loyalty. I think even his Magnaguards were designed to resemble a Khaleesh warlord's bodyguards.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

- Rey's pilot skills:
The novelization of TFA explains that she has experience flying, and I read that another one of the novels says that she actually spent a lot of time in a simulator.

Question is, where would the simulator be located? I don't remember seeing anything on a primitive, lifeless world like Jakku that looked like a simulator training academy or anything like that.

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl that is exactly what I thought of too. If she is supposed to be a poor nobody who scavenges all day to barely get enough food to survive, how is she accessing a simulator? Who is allowing her to use this and to what purpose? Who on Jakku would even have something like that?

@Aginor this just feels more like Disney style band-aid writing. Covering up one flaw with another one. In any event, they don't mention or show it in the movies, so it still feels disjointed for the movie goer.




Here is a different and unrelated question. Who here would be surprised if the story of Rey's parents being nobodies falls through and she gets tied to some pre-existing popular bloodline (Skywalker, Kenobi, etc.)?

 

[Aginor]

I think the simulator is in the destroyed AT-AT but that is merely something I read on the Internet. I have not read that book.

Here is a different and unrelated question. Who here would be surprised if the story of Rey's parents being nobodies falls through and she gets tied to some pre-existing popular bloodline (Skywalker, Kenobi, etc.)?

At this point I wouldn't be surprised at all.
I would be disappointed though.
I like that her parents are nobodies since in my opinion that makes the story more meaningful.
I think Star Wars has to move away from that family thing. There is no reason why everybody has to be descendant from somebody famous. With the Force everybody can become great, no matter who their parents are.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Here is a different and unrelated question. Who here would be surprised if the story of Rey's parents being nobodies falls through and she gets tied to some pre-existing popular bloodline (Skywalker, Kenobi, etc.)?

I would love her to be the daughter of a pair of nobodies myself because it would keep her as a mysterious vergence in the Force like Anakin was (in that he didn't have a father), or even Obi-Wan's granddaughter or something new, but knowing how much of a purist Abrams is he'll probably change it to her being Luke's daughter or similar

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think Star Wars has to move away from that family thing. There is no reason why everybody has to be descendant from somebody famous.

Star Wars is essentially a family space opera. Lucas has said as much.

Personally, in the case of Rey, I'd be fine with it going either way. She can be attached to an important lineage or to nobodies, it makes little difference to me. It's one of the things that doesn't bother me either way.

With the Force everybody can become great, no matter who their parents are.

To a degree. But it is also well established that their is a major lineage component. Sort of like how Usain Bolt's children would stand a better chance at being able to run fast than any of our potential children.

I would love her to be the daughter of a pair of nobodies myself because it would keep her as a mysterious vergence in the Force like Anakin was (in that he didn't have a father),

That was not a mysterious convergence of the force, that was Plagueis.

 

[ravagekitteh]

- @ravagekitteh this blog article makes reference to the scene I meant. I think I heard it somewhere on Youtube, I haven't read the book.
https://geektyrant.com/news/new-sta...-can-pull-down-star-destroyers-with-the-force

The book it’s from is specifically supposed to be told in a way that makes him seem mythical. That, and that fact that it goes against Aftermath and has no mention on Wookieepedia, reinforces my belief that it’s an Imperial Gunner seeing the tractor beamed Ravager and panicking.

 

[Aginor]

The book it’s from is specifically supposed to be told in a way that makes him seem mythical. That, and that fact that it goes against Aftermath and has no mention on Wookieepedia, reinforces my belief that it’s an Imperial Gunner seeing the tractor beamed Ravager and panicking.

Ok. That's a bit sad, it would have been awesome and kinda fitting for the most powerful Jedi that ever lived.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Luke disappearing from force projection is the sequel trilogy's version of Padme dying from sadness. Not as ridiculous, but having it happen to a much more integral and important character puts it on par.

 

[ravagekitteh]

Ok. That's a bit sad, it would have been awesome and kinda fitting for the most powerful Jedi that ever lived.

It would be, but I think what actually happened is still pretty cool and deserves an on screen adaptation at some point.

Luke disappearing from force projection is the sequel trilogy's version of Padme dying from sadness. Not as ridiculous, but having it happen to a much more integral and important character puts it on par.

I didn’t think so, but can we both agree that even if you don’t like the circumstances, the way it was done, with John Williams epic score and the sunset, was very fitting for his end?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I didn’t think so, but can we both agree that even if you don’t like the circumstances, the way it was done, with John Williams epic score and the sunset, was very fitting for his end?

Yes we can definitely agree on that. TLJ for all its faults, still looks visually stunning. The same can be said for the musical score.