8th Ed. Sleb & Phats Polarswap

[Mr Phat]

To sum it up short, me and Sleboda made an agreement that each of us should try breaking our usual patterns in list building.
For his next 3 games he will ride with the big frog, which he on several occasions has made clear do NOT belong in his list building.

I am on the opposite pole: I simply can't build a list and put my name on it without the big frog...so im not allowed to do so for my next 3 games

To admins: This thread will cover a bit of army lists, a bit of battle reps and hopefully a hell lot of discussion, so I wasn't sure where to put it. I hope here is fine.
But lets get to it:

I just had my first game were the frog had to stay home (even though I just gave him a makeover...) I wanted to go ALL out of my comfort zone and try something COMPLETELY of the regular.
So I called my friend and asked him to pull out his empire ETC army (which he btw just beat the "best empire player" in denmark with)
because I had something to try

THIS:

Heroes (514pts)
General - Sarus Scar-Veteran
Armor of Destiny
Cold One
Great Weapon

Sarus Scar-Veteran
Battle standard
Cold One
Enchanted Shield
Talisman of Preservation

Skink Priest - Heavens
Cube of Darkness

Skink Priest - Heavens
Dispel Scroll

Core (600pts)
10x Skink Skirmisher
10x Skink Skirmisher
10x Skink Skirmisher
10x Skink Skirmisher
14x Skink - Musician
14x Skink -Musician
14x Skink -Musician
14x Skink -Musician

Special (685pts)
Stegadon - Sharpened Horns
Stegadon - Sharpened Horns
Stegadon

Rare (600pts)
Ancient Stegadon -Engine of the Gods - Sharpened Horns
Ancient Stegadon -Engine of the Gods - Sharpened Horns

So....stegadons...and empire.

The idea was to once and for all test the "Target Saturation" > "Lot of cannons" hypothesis.
I knew his list as its what he plays in all his ETC tourneys , so I knew well what I was facing


General on Steed with runefang
Lvl 4 light mage
Lvl 2 light mage
A bsb on steed carrying magic protection amulet.
Inner circle knight bunker
A small unit of 5 knights for flanking
A couple of archer detachments
Two times 5 Demigryphs
And last for laughs:
3 cannons
He got everything from light except light of battle.....I got Comet and took blizzard instead of Wind blast.


The only terrain to my advantage was a house in the middle of the field
(It was an average ETC table, he didnt build it to screw me)

I deployed my skinks table wide an saw him deploy his knights Centered-my left, 2 cannons to my left, one to my right and then demigryphs at each side.

...and this is where im gonna cut forward as nothing interesting happened in this battle until turn 3, except that my my bsb was blasted of the table turn 2 and some pretty unfair magic rolls on my opponents part.

- It became my Turn 3
- my stegadons still had taken NO WOUNDS from cannonfire
This was due to
Iceshard blizzard stopped a cannon 2 turns in a row and due to my General soaking up the blasts with his 4++.
- I had 4 stegs in charge range of his 5 left most demigryphs (the fifth had gone for a flanking unit and couldn't catch up)
- "Charge" "Charge" "Charge" aaaand "Charge"
2 Reg stegs, and 1 Ancient steg makes it into his unit, ALL of them with sharpened horns.
This was what I had been trying to pull off
This was what he had tried to denie me in time:

My stegs connected.
And here, my fellow lizards....here my world got flipped on its stomach and......yes......
I began the match with the idea of
"2 stegs might reach combat through cannons"
"They will fight and maybe win enough for a tie"

I had all of them alive, 3 in combat, one ready for a follow-up charge and one blocking the combats flank well.

We both thought it was over and that Stegas really are usefull in numbers.!
But then!
Impact hits: 6 from the two reg stegs, 2 from the ancient
After armour save and multiple wounds they put out
4 unsaved wounds...
His gryphs put 5 unsaved wounds on me
I put one wound unsaved on him in combat.
Tie ...I had a charge so I won +1....he passed.

...................empty feeling...as I knew his knight bus was on its way, blocked only by the ancient steg (which hold up quite ok against it).
Next round my stegs lost due to no impact hits, and the round after the knight bus got in on the action.

We called it.

On my way home I was baffled, as the battle ended as I thought, but what MADE that outcome was beyond me.

I succeeded in getting all stegadons into combat woundless...that + a combo charge, and it didnt matter skwat.
They got pummeled.
3 beasts of death and muscle at a total costs of 750pts got pummeled by a unit that costs 1/3...even with the charge!
I couldnt help but say to myself "3 stegadons to the face is SUPPOSED to work.....right?"
But then I looked at the paper, and I realised just how awkward a stegadon truly is.
Its doesnt have specifically good armour, its not particular strong.
So what is it good at?
Infantry? We dont need to pay that much to deal with infantry
Monsters hunting? .....skinks
Can-opener? ...nope....Krox will do better cheaper.

I really lost my faith with these guys. I realise im asking them to go through +1 armoursave and all but come on, this is our signature monster, which is quite expensive to begin with. Shouldnt 3 of those guys be able to do something?

EXPERIMENT CONCLUSION
1. Target saturation indeed does matter!
2. Empire players need to lay down the argument "we need something against your monsters" when discussing the powerlevel of cannons
3. I can still be surprised

Dont take this as me being bitter. I expected defeat, im just yet again fairly disappointed about the powerlevel of our units.
I am probably never going to play stegadons again due :/ (never = until 9th)
as 1-2 is too little due to warmachines
And 3+ is so expensive you have to go all in on it...and apparently, it only takes 300 pts or a 1+ AS to counter it.

I think its safe to say that I broke my comfortzone and learned stuff....oh Priests actually do fine in terms of magic defence. If you decide to go slannless DEFINITELY take 2 caddies.

 

[Sleboda]

Re: Sleb & Phats Polarswap - The Stegadon Stampede

When I tell people about my "luck" (as we know, I don't actually believe in it), I often tell them that what happens is fate takes right up to the line of awesomesauce success...and THEN crushes me so that I get maximum pain.

It appear you have been infected by simple association. Sorry about that.

I think there were a few odd results that got you this game. First off, he really should have been able to take out at least one monster before the battle was joined. You did right to stop him as much as you could, but that was a bit of bad luck on his side. Then you rolled successful charge distances for several units. You have to figure that won't happen often, so some luck to you there. The killer, though, was the impact hits and sharpened horns stuff. Three impact hits should be 10-11 hits. I can't recall if our guys are +1 on that or not, but without, it's 10-11 hits, so you were down to start.

That said, I agree with you that Stegadons are underwhelming. It's actually a problem with our monsters overall. They are a stat pip off here and there, and those pips are making a huge impact (har har) on their utility.

Oh! Glad to see that you got by ok in the magic phase!

Anyway, it's great to see you doing the experiment. I'll reciprocate as soon as I can.

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: Sleb & Phats Polarswap - The Stegadon Stampede

First of all: Great inititative! Maybe this could become a thing? I tried doing something *similar* at one point, but it didn't really take off. Maybe this will? People either be asked to play x amount of games with a certain restriction and post the result or they can just go do some selfimposed restriction experiment.

Just an idea.

Second thing - maybe I've asked, but where do you live? Were you the one from Århus? Or was it Teddy? <.< I live in Odense and I'd love to play some lustria members, especially because my knowledge/experience is somewhat limited so playing someone with more experience would be great.

Anyway about the actual battle. It's a freak case scenario if anything. Getting all stegs to the front line with 3 cannons is amazeballs in itself. I've had a non-upgraded dwarf cannon take out 2 ancient stegs in the two first round of shooting. He got first turn btw. So that would be the opposite of your experience with this game lol.

So the actual matchup? I think we'll have to accept one thing. S5 vs 1+ AS is an uphill struggle. You'll need an average of 14 impact hits in order to remove 2 demigryphs/6 wounds.

Two stegs would on average generate 9 impact hits and should on average turn into 4 wounds. So your regular stegs should've done more wounds than all your stegs did combined.

An ancient steg would on average do 3,78 wounds by itself. So in other news S6 -> S5.

So you're roughly down by 4 wounds.

So you're now 4 wounds off on average. Fair enough, but how about the retaliation?.

He should've done 2 wounds to you. S5 vs T6 is tough. The knights should've done something like 0,2 wounds from all 3. So he rolled above average.

Your attacks would've resultet in roughly 2 wound from the regular stegs and 0,63 wound from the ancient. The skinks are hopeless. Even if there are 15 of the little buggers. So all in all you did what you should've here.

So how would that have looked in comparison?

* 1 Charge.
* 7-8 wounds from IH.
* 1 wounds from Attacks.

He should've done:

* 2 wounds.
* No banner?

So at minimum you should've won by 7. With BSB he would've had 5,5% to stay put.

You looked at the paper and didn't consider them awesome while in reality you could've pulverized them in a single round of combat. You were just unlucky combined with him being lucky. If it would've been different - you rolling above average and him below you could've removed 4 models instead. That's just how the dice works.

Just think about it for a second - imagine if you could've removed those 5 models, only lost 1 wound and would've been "safe" from his bus due to your ancient holding them. You would've had another shot along with your scar vet and the last steggie.

So to answer your question - can they do anything? Yes. They *should've* destroyed those demis and if you could've had another shot on the other demi unit (similar situation) you should've destroyed those as well. I'm not even talking about you rolling something ridiculous on impact hits, I'm just asking you *not* to roll something underwhelming.

It's hard though and super risky. You could've lost 2 stegaons before you reached him and you rely on getting the charge. The odds aren't great TBH since a full monster mass steggy army is probably an ultimate risk/reward army. You either crush the opponent with impact hits or you die a slow and terrible death.

Also one last thing - once your steggies reach combat they would've been "safe" from the cannons. Getting Iceshard off on those demys would've resulted in fewer wounds and a lower Ld. If that would've even been a possibility of course.

So all in all don't lose hope yet. I think we all know that the steggie army isn't really competitive and you brough it up against something ridiculous. On top of facing empire. The odds were never with you to begin with and dropping all relation with luck isn't exactly the recipe for fun timez.

I'm looking forward to more of your battle reports

 

[RipperDerek]

Re: Sleb & Phats Polarswap - The Stegadon Stampede

Impact hits from a regular stegadon (with sharepend horns) average 4.5 * (4/6) * (2/6) * 2 = 2 wounds against Demigryphs. So...you rolled within 1 standard deviation of average.

FWIW, I haven't had much luck with stegs against demigryphs either. I recommend lore of metal, horde of temple guard with razor banner, ethereal battle-slann, and/or cowboys.

 

[Markhaus]

Re: Sleb & Phats Polarswap - The Stegadon Stampede

Monsters are terribly underwhelming because of low initiative, low weapon skill, low armor, low wounds, (yes, compared to a pack of knights they have low armor and wounds) and no combat resolution. Impact hits are nice on the rare occasion you get the charge, and if my stegadon or carnosaur ever lives to stomp that might be cool against infantry only. So why would anyone ever take a stegadon or carnosaur?

2 reasons:
1: They are friggin dinosaurs. As such they look cool and fit with our army.
2: They are a single model so they can maneuver better than cavalry (except fast cavalry, which are better all around, but we can't get those, so...)

Stegadons have a toughness 6, which would be cool if you are fighting low strength critters (why would you use a stegadon against them? I don't know). A scar vet on a cold one is better for half the points, but since you can't take all your points in lords and heroes, throw in a stegadon as a handicap and enjoy the game!

(some players are so awesome they can even handicap themselves with Carnosaurs and win. I have to bow to someone who gives up 400-500 points of lords or heroes by taking that steaming pile. Some day maybe mine will hit something and I won't be so angry at it... some day)

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: Sleb & Phats Polarswap - The Stegadon Stampede

Monsters are terribly underwhelming because of low initiative, low weapon skill, low armor, low wounds, (yes, compared to a pack of knights they have low armor and wounds) and no combat resolution. Impact hits are nice on the rare occasion you get the charge, and if my stegadon or carnosaur ever lives to stomp that might be cool against infantry only. So why would anyone ever take a stegadon or carnosaur?

2 reasons:
1: They are friggin dinosaurs. As such they look cool and fit with our army.
2: They are a single model so they can maneuver better than cavalry (except fast cavalry, which are better all around, but we can't get those, so...)

Stegadons have a toughness 6, which would be cool if you are fighting low strength critters (why would you use a stegadon against them? I don't know). A scar vet on a cold one is better for half the points, but since you can't take all your points in lords and heroes, throw in a stegadon as a handicap and enjoy the game!

(some players are so awesome they can even handicap themselves with Carnosaurs and win. I have to bow to someone who gives up 400-500 points of lords or heroes by taking that steaming pile. Some day maybe mine will hit something and I won't be so angry at it... some day)

I'm no expert on using the carnosaur, but the potential is there. Assuming it won't be shot to death and you're not facing White Lions or.. Most things from WoC.. it can do quite well.. To some degree.. I think <.<

Actually.. A single carnosaur + OB w/ piranha blade and Potion of Strenght can do roughly 8 wounds each phase the beast is still alive against skullcrushers.. The trick is to keep it alive *hint* it'll be dead after the mounts have attacked (which they do simultaniously with the carno).

At least against demigryphs the beast can probably the first round.

Oh ffs.

Aim it at some human/elf knights who can only hit back at S3/4 lol.


**EDIT**

About the actual hitting part. I've had a scarnosaur do absolutetly nothing to a steamtank. Should've done roughly 3 wounds a turn, but nope. Good times.

 

[Mr Phat]

Re: Sleb & Phats Polarswap - The Stegadon Stampede

Second thing - maybe I've asked, but where do you live? Were you the one from Århus? Or was it Teddy? <.< I live in Odense and I'd love to play some lustria members, especially because my knowledge/experience is somewhat limited so playing someone with more experience would be great.

Im from Aarhus too mate



I read through you responses and have pretty much been over those thoughts (that sounded arrogant, what I mean is that I agree).

My final conclusion though, is that I really dont like the way monsters are the bottom of the food chain (Just above core infantry) and vastly overcosted (at least in our book).

..........................................SO! I wanna try something ELSE poundy in our book!

I just got my kroxigors in the mail
I am now the happy owner of 18 krox in total...which is exactly enough for my next venture without a Slann!


3*6 Krox with an Ancient in each
coming to a theater near you.

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: Sleb & Phats Polarswap - The Stegadon Stampede

I live in Odense, but play vs a friend I know who also lives in Århus so maybe we can meet some time.

I don't quite agree that our monsters are overpriced/costed. TBH I don't care much about the WS either. The fact is that even if it was bumped to WS4 we'd still not be getting more attacks through. It would need WS5 at least and that's just unthinkable all thinks considered...... Or is it?

I think one of the issues are what you mentioned yourself - we can get 2 scar vets from the price of a fully pimped ancient steggy.

The thing about the steg, I suppose, is like with the rest of our units. It relys on getting a flanks charge.

Where have I seen this mentioned before...?

 

[Mr Phat]

Re: Sleb & Phats Polarswap - The Stegadon Stampede

WELCOME FOLKS!
To another delightful episode of...SAY IT WITH ME!

*PUT*
*IT IN*
*THE FLANK*

 

[Caprasauridae]

Re: Sleb & Phats Polarswap - The Stegadon Stampede

Holy...! 18 Krox!? Ok, I should head over there, brutally murder you and take those models... As I know where you live. Kind of...

Joking aside, I love this polar swap idea, though maybe it would be more accurate if you didn't also change dice luck. Hopefully those Kroxigors will treat you better. I currently have only 3, would like to have more, but the price and the fact you have to order them from GW are turn offs. I have been trying to hunt them from eBay, but thus far without luck.

Anyway, I'm eagerly waiting for Sleboda's games with the Slann!

 

[havik110]

Re: Sleb & Phats Polarswap - The Stegadon Stampede

I will say this, the removal of the war spear hurt us...D6 vs 2D6 is big...that said they are S6 for ancient and S5 for baby...still horns are great for ogres....

a 1+ armor should have been dropped to 3 or 4 depending on the ones that hit at which point hes at 50% or better to pass...

stegs are great for specific things, 1+ armor isnt one of those things...as far as monstrous cav goes, the only one you arent wasting it on are demons or our own monstrous cav...throwing it into any other monster, or getting the charge off on ogres ruins days, especially getting 3 into a unit...

I just got my kroxigors in the mail
I am now the happy owner of 18 krox in total...which is exactly enough for my next venture without a Slann!


3*6 Krox with an Ancient in each
coming to a theater near you.

 

[GCPD]

Re: Sleb & Phats Polarswap - The Stegadon Stampede

I will say this, the removal of the war spear hurt us...

2D6+1 Impact hits on D3 wounds would probably have been too good, even for Lizardmen.

 

[Mr Phat]

Re: Sleb & Phats Polarswap - The Stegadon Stampede

Holy...! 18 Krox!? Ok, I should head over there, brutally murder you and take those models... As I know where you live. Kind of...

Joking aside, I love this polar swap idea, though maybe it would be more accurate if you didn't also change dice luck. Hopefully those Kroxigors will treat you better. I currently have only 3, would like to have more, but the price and the fact you have to order them from GW are turn offs. I have been trying to hunt them from eBay, but thus far without luck.

Anyway, I'm eagerly waiting for Sleboda's games with the Slann!

Well....judging the cost of back and forward from finland to Denmark,
may I kindly suggest that you use the ticket money to buy the models instead of murder attempt?
Seems more rational....especially when considering odds of succes.

Theres will be plenty on ebay from now on, I am done buying out

 

[Mr Phat]

Re: Sleb & Phats Polarswap - The Stegadon Stampede

I will say this, the removal of the war spear hurt us...D6 vs 2D6 is big...that said they are S6 for ancient and S5 for baby...still horns are great for ogres....

a 1+ armor should have been dropped to 3 or 4 depending on the ones that hit at which point hes at 50% or better to pass...

stegs are great for specific things, 1+ armor isnt one of those things...as far as monstrous cav goes, the only one you arent wasting it on are demons or our own monstrous cav...throwing it into any other monster, or getting the charge off on ogres ruins days, especially getting 3 into a unit...

I just got my kroxigors in the mail
I am now the happy owner of 18 krox in total...which is exactly enough for my next venture without a Slann!


3*6 Krox with an Ancient in each
coming to a theater near you.

I dont think I would want a steg to deal with gutstars for example. He gets his impacts, then he gets torn in two by the tyrant.
That or he gets put down by the ironblaster :/

I still think skinks deal with it better..and im sad, I got 3 shelved stegas :/

 

[Pofadder]

Re: Sleb & Phats Polarswap - The Stegadon Stampede

In a game of dice nothing is guaranteed...that being said I would think that your roll for impact hits was rather low

You had 8 hits if not mistaken...minus the 3 from +1's which gives only 5 impacts between your 3d6...below average if not mistaken

More impact hits especially from the ancients would have equated to more wounds in the 1st round is my guess coz he can only save so many 3 - 4 ups.

Bad luck imho...

 

[Sleboda]

Re: Sleb & Phats Polarswap - The Stegadon Stampede

Well, I am about 4 hours away from my first game in this experiment. I thought about how to best record it, and I have decided to make the post in my main Battle Reports thread. I'll add a clear note in the report over there to indicate that it's a special game.

See you soon! (I'll go post my list and pre-game thoughts now.)

 

[Mr Phat]

I am 30 minutes away from the 2nd game in mine and slebs experiment (sorry for you getting so ahead of me sleb, real life got in the way)

Me and a friend is playing some danish type of restrictions (I think?) called HammerTramp

the game is 2400 pts and the restricts affecting me is basicly these:

GENERAL
Max 4 chars
Max 2 chars with move above 6''
Max 3 core repeats
Max 2 special repeats
No repeats in rare

Max 3 WM's
No SC's
Max 50 shooting models
Max 3 flying/hover units (chars included)


MAGIC
- Max 4 pd pr spell cast
-max 12 dice used per round
- max 2 generated dice per round from ANY source
- Lookout sir on the big spells
- max 1 banishment per face
- Death magic may only boost one spell per phase.

LIZARDMEN EXPLICIT
No repeats of large targets
Slann as BSB counts as 2 diciplins
Skrox dosnt count as "shooting models"
Carnosaur - 120 pts
Stega - 180 pts
Ancient steg - 205
Razordon - 50 pts
Swarms - 25

My opponent is playing Daemons, these are their

Daemons of Chaos EXPLICIT
- Banned: Rock of Inevitabillity
- Max 10 Beast of Nurgle/Plaque Drones
- Daemonettes & bloodletters cost 1 pt less
- Daemonprince 210
- Bloodcrushers 45
- Fiends 45
- Skullcannon 225
- Beast of Nurgle 80
- Plaque Drones 70
- Horrors 15
- Pleaguebearers of nurgle 15


As I dont have the slann option, im throwing this list against him. Will update you guys post game (might be tommorow)


Pts - 2400

Lords - 250

Saurus Oldblood
- Cold one
- Armor of fortune
- Dawnstone
- The other tricksters shard
- Great Weapon

Heroes - 549

Scar-Vet -
- Bsb -
- Armor of Destiny
- Great Weapon
- Carnosaur
-- Looping stride

Skink Priest
- Beast
- Lvl 2
- Dispel Scroll

Skink Priest
- Heavens
- Lvl 2
- Cube of Darkness




Core - 724

12 Skinks - PRIESTS GO HERE
- 1 krox
- musician

12 Skinks skir -
- Javs and Shield

10 Skinks skir -
- Javs and Shield

10 Skinks skir -
- Javs and Shield

32 - Skinks -
- 4 Krox -
- Musician -
- Standard bearer - 10


Special - 536
6 Chameleons -
6 Chameleons -

8 Cold One Rider -
- Musician
- Champion

3 Ripperdactyl Riders -

Rare - 355

Ancient Stegadon -
- Eotg -
- Sharpend Horns -

Salamander -


NOTE: If anyone thinks the restricts look interesting PM me for a translation of it all. Its kinda fun and takes a lot from ETC. Only thing wrong is that WoC is basicly untouched, but that is about to be nerfed.

anyway, later!

 

[Sleboda]

Hey hey!

Good to have you back on track. Don't worry about me getting ahead of you. Life is silly sometimes and doesn't let us game as much as we would like. Pfft!

I like your list and will be particularly interested to see how the Chameleons do.

After looking at your rules changes, I have some questions.

Even though I am well known as 110% anti-comp of any kind, know that I am asking these just because I want your opinions, not to push any sort of personal agenda.

- Do you feel that with such large, sweeping, and numerous changes, you will still get in a game that meshes with our experiment? I ask because I thought about what might happen if I played under them. A Slann with Death magic would be limited and not give me that sense of power that people think I should have with a Slann. Likewise, not being able to 6-dice spells would also limit things like Life. If I wanted to take the Staff/5+ channel combo there would be little reason to do so. And so on. It just seems to me that these rules do not give an accurate insight into Warhammer as it is in the actual rules. Know what I mean?

- How many points would the armies be if played using standard point values?

- Did the rules affect your choices? Would your army have been different under regular rules?

- Did you know your opponent's army type before you wrote your list?


Good luck!



BTW, speaking of house rules, my games this weekend are being played under a very minor set of house rules:

1) 3000 points, but not Grand Armies.
2) All army lists must include at least one Monster, and it can come from Monstrous Arcanum if you want.

 

[Pinktaco]

Ugh.. I don't know.. I think the current ETC restrictions are fine, but I feel that this danish thingy tries too hard to tell you what to do. Also 120pts for a carno? Come on now son. The CO is 1/3 of that or is there a different point value for the OB carno?

Anyway your list looks interesting, but wouldn't it be more appropriate to try something completely new without any restrictions? Why be limited when you're trying new stuff?

Good luck though

 

[Mr Phat]

- Do you feel that with such large, sweeping, and numerous changes, you will still get in a game that meshes with our experiment? I ask because I thought about what might happen if I played under them. A Slann with Death magic would be limited and not give me that sense of power that people think I should have with a Slann. Likewise, not being able to 6-dice spells would also limit things like Life. If I wanted to take the Staff/5+ channel combo there would be little reason to do so. And so on. It just seems to me that these rules do not give an accurate insight into Warhammer as it is in the actual rules. Know what I mean?

Yes. Magic is magic, and what I am to learn / experience is how my magic phase fairs without the Slann
Besides, I rarely 6dice anyway.
I cant account for all my arguments, as most of them are gut feelings, but I am confident that this haven't interfered.

- How many points would the armies be if played using standard point values?

2400. We always play that way around here.

- Did the rules affect your choices? Would your army have been
different under regular rules?

Probably no carno. It would rather be 1 OB+CO and 2 Scar vets on CO.
The rippers was an experiment, as I found a LOT of extra points without a Slann and TG

- Did you know your opponent's army type before you wrote your list?

yes, but it didn't affect it. We go for all comers / tournament lists mostly.

-Good luck!

didnt happen!

Why be limited when you're trying new stuff?

Taking the games that come my way when I got time. This was the one that came up


I will write a sum-up of the game shortly! will probably be up tomorrow.