AoS Slann or Kroak?

[TheKuznetsov]

Greetings, I'm slowly making my army for AoS however, I'm undescive bewteen chosing the most important role of our army, the Legendary Lord Kroak or a simple Slann Starmaster.

I've checked alot, before making this post I went to many sites even in the forums, 1d4chan and an official Warhammer store to get some advice. Both seems very good for our armies, however some say that Kroak is good but not that super great and could be considered an HQ Tax vice versa.

But I would like to hear some of your arguments with great pleasure since I find both of them quite good.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Kroak is expensive but a good mortal wound source, in this edition summoning is a very important part of our army so I would always go Slann

 

[GuaDan]

Summoning Slann seems like the most efficient at present.

 

[Canas]

It's quite simple really:

Kroak can do everything a slann can but better. Especially with respect to dealing damage Kroak is leagues ahead. Also in certain realms you can get some nifty defensive spells which combined with his dead for innumerable ages and his surprisingly decent spirit claws actually allow him to be in the front line of your army and kick ass in a non-magical way.

On the downside; Kroak is vastly more expensive. And if you go for a summoning based list Kroak's advantages are largely negated. Given how stupidly strong summoning is this is fairly important to note.

Also a normal slann gets command traits and stuff, which can be beneficial like the trait that gives 2 teleports.

Anyways tl;dr: Kroak if you want some magical mayhem, slanns if you want to focus on summoning, want to be cheap or want command traits/artifacts etc.

 

[TheKuznetsov]

It's quite simple really:

Kroak can do everything a slann can but better. Especially with respect to dealing damage Kroak is leagues ahead. Also in certain realms you can get some nifty defensive spells which combined with his dead for innumerable ages and his surprisingly decent spirit claws actually allow him to be in the front line of your army and kick ass in a non-magical way.

On the downside; Kroak is vastly more expensive. And if you go for a summoning based list Kroak's advantages are largely negated. Given how stupidly strong summoning is this is fairly important to note.

Also a normal slann gets command traits and stuff, which can be beneficial like the trait that gives 2 teleports.

Anyways tl;dr: Kroak if you want some magical mayhem, slanns if you want to focus on summoning, want to be cheap or want command traits/artifacts etc.

Im curious to know how Kroak is as you describe a guy who does "Magical Mayhem"

 

[Galen]

Kroak is far superiour to a regular Slann at being a magical artillery piece. A regular Slann can toss out an Arcane Bolt for D3 Mortal Wounds and/or a Realm spell that does something similar. However Kroak can throw out D3 Mortal Wounds to 3 units within 10" on a 2+ up to three times a turn. He can boost the range of that by using a Balewind, rolling 10+ or being near an Astrolith Bearer, and all those things stack. Meaning that even without rolling a 10+, you can be selecting units within 24", and units within 30" on a 10+. That's a huge threat range. Sure it takes a 8+, then 9+, then 10+, but you can get +1 from your Astrolith Bearer. Plus you get another unique spell that does D3 Mortal Wounds to up to D6 enemy units. He's also a lot harder to kill thanks to his special rule and he gets 4 spells to a regular Slann's 3. If you want to be spell slinging, Kroak is the Slann of choice.

Post nerfs however, it's hard to justify Kroak over a regular Slann. His Command Ability got badly nerfed from 3 rerolls on 4+'s to 3 CP on 4+'s. CP is nice but they don't help casting, which is what Kroak is there for. He can't take Command Traits, and since Slann have some excellent ones to chose from this hurts. He's also pricey, and if you're going to use him for Summoning he's barely better than a regular Slann.

 

[Canas]

Im curious to know how Kroak is as you describe a guy who does "Magical Mayhem"

As @Galen said, Kroak has every damaging spell the slann would have acces to on top of his personal meteors and celestial deliverance, which are two quite devestating spells. Hence, if you want to go for spellcasting he's your guy.

The command ability he has is quite terrible though, given that CP's are for saurus lists not for Kroak lists..

And yeah the main issue is the power of summoning. It is a massivly powerfull mechanic and kroak is better at it, but only barely. And it negates his advantages in spellslinging. Hence why he's seen a bit less use.

 

[Killer Angel]

Plus, the Slann comes with constellations' effect, which is a general utility that is always helpful.

 

[Canas]

Plus, the Slann comes with constellations' effect, which is a general utility that is always helpful.

It's a shame that changing it if it's the wrong one is so risky as it can mean no more spellcasts..

 

[Killer Angel]

It's a shame that changing it if it's the wrong one is so risky as it can mean no more spellcasts..

QFT
With such a risk, i should succeed on a 2+

 

[Canas]

QFT
With such a risk, i should succeed on a 2+

To be honest, taking away the risk of failure completly wouldn't even be overpowered.. The cost of sacrificing an entire spell for it is quite significant now that spells are used for generating summoning points. Feels like that really is already enough now.

 

[Killer Angel]

To be honest, taking away the risk of failure completly wouldn't even be overpowered.. The cost of sacrificing an entire spell for it is quite significant now that spells are used for generating summoning points. Feels like that really is already enough now.

Yes, ATM you just stick with the rolled constellation and live with it.

 

[ILKAIN]

or just change the constellation and use the spells as summons if you fail to change it. the rules for changing it say you cant cast spells, the rules for summoning points say you conjure INSTEAD of casting... nothing says your remaining spells go to zero so you still have them to convert.

 

[Canas]

or just change the constellation and use the spells as summons if you fail to change it. the rules for changing it say you cant cast spells, the rules for summoning points say you conjure INSTEAD of casting... nothing says your remaining spells go to zero so you still have them to convert.

It says you can't cast if you fail, so yeah your spells go to 0. Being unable to cast, but being able to sacrifice spells for a summoning mechanic would be against the RAW unless you take an rather odd interpretation of "can't cast" and it'd definetly be against the spirit of the rules. So no you can't still generate summon points.

 

[PJetski]

Do you plan on Summoning?
Do you want to save ~200 points?
Do you plan on casting Realm Spells or Endless Spells?
Do you plan on Summoning?
Do you want easy access to Curse of Fates for an Engine of the Gods?
Do you want to use Lords of Space and Time twice per turn?
Do you want to boost your charge rolls or the casting of your whole army?
Do you want to use Dracothions Tail or Fangs of Sotek battalions?

If the answer to any of these questions is "Yes" then take a regular Slann instead.

You can take both and completely dominate the magic portion of the game, but that's a huge part of your army spent on a pair of 7 wound models. Personally, I don't find Kroak to be worth his points because the opportunity cost is so huge.

 

[Canas]

Do you plan on Summoning?
Do you want to save ~200 points?
Do you plan on casting Realm Spells or Endless Spells?
Do you plan on Summoning?
Do you want easy access to Curse of Fates for an Engine of the Gods?
Do you want to use Lords of Space and Time twice per turn?
Do you want to boost your charge rolls or the casting of your whole army?
Do you want to use Dracothions Tail or Fangs of Sotek battalions?

If the answer to any of these questions is "Yes" then take a regular Slann instead.

You can take both and completely dominate the magic portion of the game, but that's a huge part of your army spent on a pair of 7 wound models. Personally, I don't find Kroak to be worth his points because the opportunity cost is so huge.

why wouldn't kroak summon do realm spells or endless spells?

 

[PJetski]

why wouldn't kroak summon do realm spells or endless spells?

He can do both of those things, but if you are spending 190 points to "upgrade" your Slann to Kroak and you're not casting his unique spells then you're kinda wasting points.

 

[Canas]

He can do both of those things, but if you are spending 190 points to "upgrade" your Slann to Kroak and you're not casting his unique spells then you're kinda wasting points.

well he can do the stuff what they'd be doing and then use at least one of his unique spells, probably more. It's still a fairly significant boon, if not necesarly worth a 190 points. Especially the realm/endless spells seem like rather a weak argument against using him as that just occupies 1 of his 4 spells. The three unique spells he can then throw around are definitly worth the 190 points (not to mention that Kroak can actually resemble something usefull in a melee unlike a regular slann).

 

[Killer Angel]

Slann and Kroak cover two totally different roles... even more different than GHB2017.
You don't pick Kroak for heavy summoning but because you want to use every round its unique spells; to forego 1-2 spells would be a possibility if the circumstances will let you do it.
You pick a Slann for summoning; to cast a utility spell would be a possibility if the circumstances require it.

 

[Canas]

Slann and Kroak cover two totally different roles... even more different than GHB2017.
You don't pick Kroak for heavy summoning but because you want to use every round its unique spells; to forego 1-2 spells would be a possibility if the circumstances will let you do it.
You pick a Slann for summoning; to cast a utility spell would be a possibility if the circumstances require it.

Mwha, you can pick Kroak for super heavy summoning given that you get a spell more or for heavy summoning + the occasional endless spell or realm spell. However if that's worth the points is rather debatable..

Also I'd be curious if using Kroak in melee would be interesting. He has a decent statline & death for unnumerable ages does make him rather obnoxious to move. Especially contesting objectives against a minor force on his own or ripping apart a supporting hero should be more than within his capabilities even without taking into consideration his spells. Doubly so if he can throw a meteor at his target first or if he uses a realm spell or two to buff himself.

Anyone have any ideas if its double or has noone dared to risk him like that yet?