8th Ed. Slann bunker or not?

[mipevo6]

Folks,

I have had a look through but couldn't see much.

I will be playing my first game with a Slann tonight. I was wondering if it is better to bunk him in a TG unit or run him just behind?

I am taking a light Slann with Soul of Stone, Harmonic Conversion, Ironcurse Icon and a Channeling Staff.

Thanks for any advice you can give

 

[Pinktaco]

I usually don't. If I bunker him it'll be with wandering deliberation since the casting values are low. Usually I place him with skink skirmishers, in that case you don't need ironcurse icon or soul of stone IMO.

 

[Ixt]

I tend to bunker him in TG as I slog across the board, but he leaves the unit as I close in on combat. Based on board conditions, he'll then lurk some length behind the unit.

At this point, he's either alone (out of enemy range or sight), or he's ranked up with Skirmishers. At this point, the Skinks are usually tapping their feet as they wait for the Saurus & Toad to catch up!

It keeps him safe from CC, keeps the TG safe from Miscast, and allows me to deter flanking units via magic without having to rely on an Arcane Vassal.

If I feel that I may lose combat, I'll move him back up the board until he's reached General/BSB range for the unit's Leadership benefit.

I should mention that this is a tactic that I've used with a Focus of Mystery build.

 

[Dyvim Tvar]

I would do the exact opposite.

Run him behind the unit (in a unit of skink skirmishers) until close combat is inevitable. Move him in at that point to make sure that the unit is Stubborn.

The only reason to have a Slann in a unit of TG is that the combined unit is so hard to break. Moving out before combat is joined defeats the entire purpose, and also needlessly exposes an expensive unit to the potentially devastating effect of miscasts.

 

[Ixt]

I would do the exact opposite.

Run him behind the unit (in a unit of skink skirmishers) until close combat is inevitable. Move him in at that point to make sure that the unit is Stubborn.

The only reason to have a Slann in a unit of TG is that the combined unit is so hard to break. Moving out before combat is joined defeats the entire purpose, and also needlessly exposes an expensive unit to the potentially devastating effect of miscasts.

Fair! Typically have a CoC in there, personally, but to each their own.

 

[Dyvim Tvar]

It's totally valid to run Temple Guard without a Slann in the unit -- especially with a Saurus Character for support, they can dish a lot of damage and don't necessarily need the Slann. But if that's the thought process, then the Slann should stay out of the unit for the entire game.

 

[Ixt]

It's totally valid to run Temple Guard without a Slann in the unit -- especially with a Saurus Character for support, they can dish a lot of damage and don't necessarily need the Slann. But if that's the thought process, then the Slann should stay out of the unit for the entire game.

I'm not trying to argue or be fickle or anything, but the unit carries him so that he benefits from the 'Look Out, Sir!' auto-pass Guardians rule conferred by TG.

I know that it only fails on a '1,' that he can blow up the rank-and-file with a miscast (Soul of Stone has saved me a few times here), but I'd rather cut my losses into the Temple Guard than into the Slann.

There are a lot of cannon users in my 'meta' (I hope I'm using that term right), so I'm somewhat averse to always taking multiple 'Look Out Sir!' tests in a single phase. I've seen Empire players rip their opponents apart by continually forcing these tests - a '1' is bound to show up eventually and, when it does, BOOM! Dead character.

Again: not trying to split hairs or anything here - just passing along what's worked for me so far.

 

[Dyvim Tvar]

Assuming optimal aiming point of of 10 inches from the back of the Slann, a single cannon shot against a Slann in a non-TG infantry unit has about a 1.9% chance of killing him outright (2/3 chance to hit, 1/6 get through Look Out Sir!, 1/2 get through the ward, and 1/3 do enough wounds to kill).

Multiple cannons and multiple shots obviously increase the possibility of it happening, but against 1 or 2 cannon I am more than willing to take the risk, especially since I generally have plenty of option for quickly taking care of war machines.

Also, if running the Slann in a skink unit causes him to be targeted by cannon, to me that's a pretty good thing. The chance that he gets hurt is so miniscule, and it means that my opponent isn't shooting at other expensive stuff he can kill much more easily (like a Steg or Basitladon).

 

[SilverFaith]

Assuming optimal aiming point of of 10 inches from the back of the Slann, a single cannon shot against a Slann in a non-TG infantry unit has about a 1.9% chance of killing him outright (2/3 chance to hit, 1/6 get through Look Out Sir!, 1/2 get through the ward, and 1/3 do enough wounds to kill).

Multiple cannons and multiple shots obviously increase the possibility of it happening, but against 1 or 2 cannon I am more than willing to take the risk, especially since I generally have plenty of option for quickly taking care of war machines.

Also, if running the Slann in a skink unit causes him to be targeted by cannon, to me that's a pretty good thing. The chance that he gets hurt is so miniscule, and it means that my opponent isn't shooting at other expensive stuff he can kill much more easily (like a Steg or Basitladon).

As with everything, this game is about luck. Sometimes, people just strike it lucky, and win the game on virtue of that, and nothing else.

I've seen a unit of 60 skeletons kill 25 Swordmasters by themselves, with no magic at all to support them. That happens. It's RIDICULOUSLY unlikely, but it happens. And suddenly, the game changed significantly because of that.

You can only do so much to skew the odds in your favor. At some point, tactic just doesn't matter anymore, because the entire game was decided through a series of unfortunate events, that, however unlikely they are, means the game ended just like that.

A fun story I heard from my local group, which is actually recorded from a tournament my local group held. VC vs Wood Elves. VC start, decide to raise dead. Miscasts, gets sucked into the warp, and then half his army crumbles right then and there. He lost practically everything, rolling almost purely 10+ on his leadership rolls.

Wood elves turn, nothing of note happens, moves forward, puts a few arrows in him, nothing spectacular.

Next turn, a new necromancer takes over. Tries to use invocation of nehek to raise a few of his many casualties, miscasts, gets sucked into the warp, and even more of his army crumbles. He calls the game right there, having already lost a good 70% of his army, and his last necromancer wouldn't really do much to help this train get back on track anymore.

There are a lot of benefits to throwing a Slann in a TG bunker, but don't do it for the cannon protection. If that's the only benefit you see, you are far better served with a skink bunker.

 

[Scalenex]

Folks,

I have had a look through but couldn't see much.

I will be playing my first game with a Slann tonight. I was wondering if it is better to bunk him in a TG unit or run him just behind?

I am taking a light Slann with Soul of Stone, Harmonic Conversion, Ironcurse Icon and a Channeling Staff.

Thanks for any advice you can give

Channeling Staff and Harmonic Convergence work well for lone Slann or bunkered Slann.

An Iron Curse Icon is useless on a solo Slann and useful (nigh mandatory in my opinion) with a TG bunker.

Is he a BSB? I generally give my bunkered Slann BSB and usually don't give my solo Slann the battle standard (I'm afraid of autobreaking).

If you see your use of Light magic being to zap things or buff individual units, this suggests a solo Slann. The Light spells are such long range that you don't need a bunker for the non-augmented spells.

If you see your Slann using the bubble effects of the Light buffs, you'll get a lot more mileage out of a TG bunker because it will give you a solid center to radiate buffs from.

Given that Light works well with both solo Slann and bunkered Slann I think the question about whether or not to take Temple Guard depends on what other units you have.

If you are running a Traditional army, you want to make sure you have a good sized block of Saurus, Temple Guard, or Kroxigor per 800 points or so. If you are running a Skirmisher army you probably don't want the Temple Guard. If you are running a Predatory army you definitely want Temple Guard. If you are running Monster Mash you probably do not want Temple Guard.

 

[mipevo6]

Folks,

Thanks all for the replies, i will have a detailed read and hopefully learn something.

I didn't bunker him and put him in a unit of skinks which ultimately lost me the game.

I am still a newb having only played about 4 games of wfb but tonight I did learn a few things, but I had the most frustrating, boring, never playing him again game tonight.

He turned up with only 3 units not on cold ones / Pegasus / horses (points denial list)

He chewed up my chaff then just ran away all night but managed to get his Pegasus lord in fly charge range of my Slann which he chewed through very quickly at which point I resigned.

In hindsight i should have just sat there and not moved and made him come to me.

Oh well.

Cheers

Martin

 

[Ixt]

Assuming optimal aiming point of of 10 inches from the back of the Slann, a single cannon shot against a Slann in a non-TG infantry unit has about a 1.9% chance of killing him outright (2/3 chance to hit, 1/6 get through Look Out Sir!, 1/2 get through the ward, and 1/3 do enough wounds to kill).

Multiple cannons and multiple shots obviously increase the possibility of it happening, but against 1 or 2 cannon I am more than willing to take the risk, especially since I generally have plenty of option for quickly taking care of war machines.

Also, if running the Slann in a skink unit causes him to be targeted by cannon, to me that's a pretty good thing. The chance that he gets hurt is so miniscule, and it means that my opponent isn't shooting at other expensive stuff he can kill much more easily (like a Steg or Basitladon).

There are a lot of benefits to throwing a Slann in a TG bunker, but don't do it for the cannon protection. If that's the only benefit you see, you are far better served with a skink bunker.

I mean, yeah: as an example, cannons are one thing in a list of many that the TG completely nullify. Even so, it's not often that I find a lone cannon as the only threat on the board: an army with 3 cannons (and other threats) is a pretty normal thing. Engineers are a thing too btw.

While the chances of an outright death are apparently miniscule (they certainly don't seem that way when so much comes down to a 4+ save), the TG bunker completely removes the option of focus-firing the Slann to death or near-death in a single turn.

I don't have to worry about scrambling to heal my Slann (Apotheosis is better for the monsters that will definitely be taking wounds & units that benefit from Fear anyway), and I don't have to worry about losing my Slann (this guy is a powerhouse and, put simply, makes the rest of our army much better), he won't be slowing down my skirmishers, and it's impossible to charge him.

With Soul of Stone, I don't really even need to worry about blowing up my TG, and on top of that they will definitely benefit from Earth Blood for most of the game as they move down the board. 3+/5+? Thanks much! At T4, my TG are now a complete nuisance to kill en masse.

If I roll up FtS, ToV, or Regrowth, that's even better!

So, I put my Slann in TG for all-round protection, and resort to skinks (a decent option but sorely lacking by comparison) when I have to. TG/Slann just synergize way better.

It seems like 'TG Bunker' is a good term because it's just that: a great fortification for your Slann that stops practically all incoming damage (and effectively absorbs unit-wide effects).

 

[Dyvim Tvar]

While the chances of an outright death are apparently miniscule (they certainly don't seem that way when so much comes down to a 4+ save), the TG bunker completely removes the option of focus-firing the Slann to death or near-death in a single turn.

It's not the 4+ save that keeps him alive, it's the 2+ Look Out Sir! that keeps him alive.

Yes, there is a 1/6 chance it gets through (assuming it hits), but then you still have the 4+ save and the cannon needs to do enough wounds to kill.

If I am facing 3 cannons, I actually WANT all 3 of them shooting at my Slaan. Because if they aren't shooting at my Slann, then they are shooting at other expensive stuff (like a Steg, Bastiladon or cowboy Scar Vet) that they have a MUCH better chance of killing. If my opponent is enough of a sucker to shoot at the Slann in hopes of it failing a Look Out Sir! roll, then he deserves to lose and probably will.

 

[SilverFaith]

While the chances of an outright death are apparently miniscule (they certainly don't seem that way when so much comes down to a 4+ save), the TG bunker completely removes the option of focus-firing the Slann to death or near-death in a single turn.

It's not the 4+ save that keeps him alive, it's the 2+ Look Out Sir! that keeps him alive.

Yes, there is a 1/6 chance it gets through (assuming it hits), but then you still have the 4+ save and the cannon needs to do enough wounds to kill.

If I am facing 3 cannons, I actually WANT all 3 of them shooting at my Slaan. Because if they aren't shooting at my Slann, then they are shooting at other expensive stuff (like a Steg, Bastiladon or cowboy Scar Vet) that they have a MUCH better chance of killing. If my opponent is enough of a sucker to shoot at the Slann in hopes of it failing a Look Out Sir! roll, then he deserves to lose and probably will.

This also means that it can actually be worthwhile to place a slann amongst skinks just to bait an enemy with the chance of cannonballing him.

No one would shoot at a slann in a TG bunker. Unless you think you can wipe out the unit, there is just no point - and if they think they can wipe out the unit, they think too highly of their warmachines, or you brought too few temple guards.

 

[Dyvim Tvar]

This also means that it can actually be worthwhile to place a slann amongst skinks just to bait an enemy with the chance of cannonballing him.

Bingo

 

[sillyduck123]

I know the post is a week late but..

i'd take him in the TG unit you need to get close to your opponent so you can cast your spells
the TG offer great protection.

If your slann dies your f**ked

 

[GCPD]

I am still a newb having only played about 4 games of wfb but tonight I did learn a few things, but I had the most frustrating, boring, never playing him again game tonight.

At this point I was going "Delf? Welf? DoC? Dwarf? Lizards?" Turns out my first guess was correct.

Here's the thing about bunkers which I think has been overlooked in this thread, although somewhat hinted at: there's never going to be a situation that is always optimal. Sometimes the Slann will work best in a unit of Temple Guard, sometimes Skink Skirmishers, sometimes Saurus, sometimes Skink Cohort. Very often this will change during the course of a game. Unlike other armies where you take a cheap bunker and hide it at the back of the board, with Lizardmen I think its key to stay flexible throughout the course of the battle. With that in mind, its good to have several options available rather than relying on one (although this will influence and be influenced by army build).