8th Ed. Skrox ranking

[rd4]

20 skinks and 3 kroxigor, how to rank them?

 

[hdctambien]

I would do this:
SSSSSS
KKKKKK
KKKKKK
SSSSSS
SSSSSS
SS

 

[rd4]

Thanks, no protection on their flank though?

 

[Lizardmatt]

You must have at least 24 skinks to start with to have 3 krox.
To start off, I would go 6 wide and 6 deep.

-Matt

 

[chefsdad]

Thanks, no protection on their flank though?

With the current rules they would have no protection on the flank anyway, unless there were two ranks of skinks next to them.

 

[hdctambien]

With the current rules they would have no protection on the flank anyway, unless there were two ranks of skinks next to them.

If there are skinks between the Kroxigor and the enemy there there is a little bit of protection. Only the front rank of the opponent's unit can attack the Kroxigor (not supporting attacks). It's not much, but it does reduce the number of attacks against them by 50% (which is better than the 16% boost you could get from getting a -1 to hit penalty but allowing supporting attacks to hit also)

 

[Sleboda]

Related to this, when I read the rules for this unit I initially decided they were too restrictive for me so I didn't use them.

As I've shown before, I am a big believer in following the rules as written. I also don't believe you are allowed to consciously opt to make list choices that "force" you to break a rule. The typical example that shows what I mean by this is that you cannot spend 50% on Special, then 25% on Rares, then 25% on Lords and say "Oops, I guess I ran out of points for Core, so oh well, no Core for me."

Another example of where you should apply all the rules and how you cannot "force" a broken rule is with Empire Detachments and the Watchtower scenario. According to Watchtower, you may place one unit in the tower. I've seen Empire players try to place a unit there and then drop their Detachment next to the tower. They say that the Empire book says Detachments must be placed within 3 inches (or whatever) of the parent, and since the parent is in the tower, the Detachment is "forced" to go out there too.

They have it backwards, obviously. Watchtower allows for one unit to be out of the deployment zone. If your only eligible unit for the Tower is a Parent, then you simply cannot go in the tower because the rules for the Detachment placement make it impossible to be legal with the Parent in the tower.

Again, you cannot make a choice to try to "force" a rule to break.


Anyway, that's all set up for my point with Cohorts that have Kroxigors in them.

Under Spawn-kin it says a few things. It says that the front rank's width cannot be less than the second rank and also that "If no more Kroxigor can fit in the unit's second rank" then put the extras in the next rank.

The key here is "can" (which is why I bolded it). If you are setting up your unit, you have the option to go wide with your front rank - wide enough to make sure that all your Kroxigor "can" fit in the second rank. You may be forced into buying more skinks than you would like when you build your list, but that _is_ something you can do. Choosing to buy fewer skinks in the unit to force the unit to be more narrow is not an option since you "can" make choices that will allow all Krox to be in the second rank. Nor is it an option to go only 5 skinks wide if you have 3 Krox. You cannot choose to be that narrow and force the third Krox to the next rank since you have a formation option that allows all the Krox to fit in rank #2.

I don't know how often this will come up, since most people want those Krox in the second rank, but I can imagine that the unit would get wider than people want if you bought, say, 4 Kroxigore.


Anyway, I'm probably going to try this unit soon, but I'll be sticking to 2, or at most 3, Kroxigor in the unit, so a frontage of 6 skinks isn't a big deal anyway.

 

[serekth]

Anyway, that's all set up for my point with Cohorts that have Kroxigors in them.

Under Spawn-kin it says a few things. It says that the front rank's width cannot be less than the second rank and also that "If no more Kroxigor can fit in the unit's second rank" then put the extras in the next rank.

The key here is "can" (which is why I bolded it). If you are setting up your unit, you have the option to go wide with your front rank - wide enough to make sure that all your Kroxigor "can" fit in the second rank. You may be forced into buying more skinks than you would like when you build your list, but that _is_ something you can do. Choosing to buy fewer skinks in the unit to force the unit to be more narrow is not an option since you "can" make choices that will allow all Krox to be in the second rank. Nor is it an option to go only 5 skinks wide if you have 3 Krox. You cannot choose to be that narrow and force the third Krox to the next rank since you have a formation option that allows all the Krox to fit in rank #2.

I don't know how often this will come up, since most people want those Krox in the second rank, but I can imagine that the unit would get wider than people want if you bought, say, 4 Kroxigore.


Anyway, I'm probably going to try this unit soon, but I'll be sticking to 2, or at most 3, Kroxigor in the unit, so a frontage of 6 skinks isn't a big deal anyway.

Your example to set up this doesn't support your logic because it's an entirely different rule. An example that could (but doesn't) support your logic is characters and command models. It's the most similar situation in the rules. Characters are supposed to go in the front rank, but command models MUST go in the front rank. If there is no room for characters in the front rank, they are placed in the second rank. The reason why this is possible is that you as the player can decide how wide a unit deploys. You make the decision. You can also change the frontage of your unit at any time.

The MUST is why your logic doesn't work. The word can does not imply must. Can is different then must. Can gives you an option, a decision you are able to make. Must eliminates all other decisions. You've extrapolated here with your logic and your logic is not RAW at all. It simply isn't supported in the writing and and in the most similar example elsewhere in the rulebook shows that the word you used to base your logic, can, does not have the meaning you are trying to say it does.

 

[Sleboda]

...Characters are supposed to go in the front rank, but command models MUST go in the front rank. If there is no room for characters in the front rank, they are placed in the second rank. The reason why this is possible is that you as the player can decide how wide a unit deploys. You make the decision. You can also change the frontage of your unit at any time.

=> The reason that character thing doesn't work (as you mentioned) is because the rules themselves provide the out.

The MUST is why your logic doesn't work. The word can does not imply must. Can is different then must. Can gives you an option, a decision you are able to make. Must eliminates all other decisions. You've extrapolated here with your logic and your logic is not RAW at all. It simply isn't supported in the writing and and in the most similar example elsewhere in the rulebook shows that the word you used to base your logic, can, does not have the meaning you are trying to say it does.

=> I totally get the whole can/must thing. I've had to beat that into some heads in the past here and there.

The thing is, this is flipped from the normal argument.

The Krox thing is saying if you "can" find a way to fit the krox in the second rank, then that's what you do. To put it a different way-

You are arranging your unit in a pleasing manner (a decision you can make just like you can decide to include detachments or not in your Empire list). You have a lot of ways you can form up. Options, options, options. Is one of those ways going to permit all our Kroxigor to be in the second rank? If so, then that's an option you have to take over an option that places them in a third rank, because the rules tell you what to do in a case where you can make it happen. Like the rules say, you can't put them in the third rank unless you can't put them in the second rank, and you do indeed have a way available to you to arrange your unit so that they can be all in rank #2.

It's a different usage of "can" than we normally invoke in the can/must discussion. The usual one is "You can do this" as opposed to "you must do this." It's giving you an option (as in "you can give your wizard a scroll, but you don't have to" but if it said "If your wizard can take a scroll, give him one" then you would have to give him a scroll because you can - which is what the Spawn-kin rule is saying). In this case we are told that if the option exists (if you can place them in rank #2" then that's what you do. It is, essentially, a must. You "can" do it. It's possible. Since that's the case, it's what you (must) do.


I'll pose one more slightly different way. Can you do something to fit all your Krox in rank 2? Is it possible (can you)? Ok then, do that!

 

[hdctambien]

I'll pose one more slightly different way. Can you do something to fit all your Krox in rank 2? Is it possible (can you)? Ok then, do that!

I think you're pulling too much out of what the rule is saying.

What I think you are saying is that this is an illegal formation:

SSSS
KKKK
KKKK
KKSS
KKSS
SSSS
SS....

Because it is possible to rank up like this:

SSSSSS
KKKKKK
KKKKKK
SSSSSS
SSS....

But he rule doesn't say that "the front rank must be big enough so that all kroxigor are placed in the second rank"

It says 4 things:

1) Kroxigor must be placed in the 2nd rank
2) The front rank cannot be smaller than the second rank
3) if kroxigor can no longer fit in the 2nd rank then place the remaining kroxigor in the subsequent ranks
4) If there are not enough skinks for both #1 and #2 to be true, then put Kroxigor in the front rank

#1 is saying Kroxigor cannot be put in the first rank, they MUST be put in the 2nd rank. There is no requirement as to how big the first rank must be.

#2 gives the only requirement as to the size of the front rank. It cannot be smaller than the 2nd rank which makes this formation illegal:

SSSSS
KKKKKK
KKKKKK
SSSSS? <-- would a skink even go here?? Who cares, it's illegal!
SSS...

#3 then tells you exactly what to do if your front rank meets rule #2 but is not big enough to accommodate all of your kroxigor which allows formations such as:

SSSSS
KKKKS
KKKKS
KKSSS
KKSSS
SS....

There are few reasons to do this, but reasons do exist. Mainly, you might need to squeeze your unit through a small gap. That is allowed. Heck, go for a (absurdly long) conga line!

SS
KK
KK
KK
KK
KK
KK
SS
SS
..

In this case the #2 rule also settles any disputes as to where Command and Character units go in a small frontage unit. Two command models would be in the front rank, followed by your Kroxigor, then the remaining command and character models (because the Kroxigor must go in the 2nd rank)

Your point of view seems to be that rule #1 defines the minimum width of your unit, but I think that role is being fulfilled by rule #2.

Rule #1 is really just saying that you can't choose to put the Kroxigor in the front rank.

I understand that you are interpreting the word "must" so basically say that the #3 rule can never happen. But this rule is so poorly written that later on it uses the ambiguous word "only" to seemingly say that the enemy front rank must attack the Kroxigor and cannot choose to attack the models right in front of them.

I don't think anyone I've every played with would disallow a Skrox unit from bumping Kroxigor in to the 3rd (technically 4th) rank based on how that rule is written.

I would be curious to find out how someone that speaks British English interprets the rules as written. RAW should really be RAWBABP (Rules as Written by a British Person). We speak the same language, but do we really speak the same language?

 

[serekth]

You've based your argument on it being RAW. But you're still extrapolating here. Your argument is based on something that is not written there at all. You've made an inference. Therefore you have ceased to be RAW and now you're talking about RAI. And if you want to interpret it like that, that's your call. But again, you are not talking about RAW here.

I understand that you're saying the can here is actually a must. However, your logic is wrong:

but you don't have to" but if it said "If your wizard can take a scroll, give him one" then you would have to give him a scroll because you can - which is what the Spawn-kin rule is saying). In this case we are told that if the option exists (if you can place them in rank #2" then that's what you do.

Here's the exact wording as you've already quoted of the rule in question.

"If no more Kroxigor can fit in the unit's second rank, place the remaining Kroxigor in subsequent ranks." This is really the lynchpin of the discussion. There's a bit more to the rule, but this is the core of the discussion and the core of your logic. Which is why I'm not looking at the other parts of the Spawn-kin rule.

So the example you gave in the above quote is this: "If your wizard can take a scroll, give him one". Let's break that down into easy letters.

A = If your wizard can take a scroll
B = give him one

Your logic then, this: If A then B. That's fine.

Now let's look at the breakdown of the rule in the Lizardmen book.

A = If no more Kroxigor can fit in the unit's second rank
B = place the remaining Kroxigor in the subsequent ranks

The logic of the rule is the same as the above example, If A then B.

Where you part from the written logic of the rule is this:

A= If no more Kroxigor can fit in the unit's second rank
B = place the remaining Kroxigor in the subsequent ranks
C = maximise your front rank to fit all the kroxigor in the second rank so they don't spill into the third

Or in otherwords, If A then B, Therefore C. The C clause is an inference, because nothing of the sort is written there. In other words, you've extrapolated.

Now whether or not your inference is correct is another discussion. Now the discussion is no longer about RAW but RAI.

 

[Sleboda]

Well, if you stop at A -> B and don't reach C, you are left in a state of limbo with no answer. That's my point. You are told if A then B ... which naturally begs the question "Ok, how B?" C is the answer that facilitates[/] A->B being resolvable.

Anyhoo, it doesn't really matter. My units will never have the problem, so I'm not going to have to worry about solving the rule riddle.

 

[serekth]

Well, if you stop at A -> B and don't reach C, you are left in a state of limbo with no answer. That's my point. You are told if A then B ... which naturally begs the question "Ok, how B?" C is the answer that facilitates[/] A->B being resolvable.

Anyhoo, it doesn't really matter. My units will never have the problem, so I'm not going to have to worry about solving the rule riddle.

I like your existential approach to this

Clause C isn't necessary here, though. In fact, clause C isn't given at all in the Spawn-kin rules, and that's okay because "how" isn't always needed when it comes to rules in a wargame.

As written there are 4 requirements that need to be met for this rule. I like the way hdctambien laid these out:

1) Kroxigor must be placed in the 2nd rank
2) The front rank cannot be smaller than the second rank
3) if kroxigor can no longer fit in the 2nd rank then place the remaining kroxigor in the subsequent ranks
4) If there are not enough skinks for both #1 and #2 to be true, then put Kroxigor in the front rank

Here's why C isn't necessary. Let's use an example unit ranking that meets the 4 requirements previously given:

SSSSSS
KKKKKK
KKKKKK
KKSSSS
KKSSSS
SSSSSS

1) Are all Kroxigors placed in the 2nd rank? Yes, condition one is met.
2) Is the front rank smaller than the second rank? No, so the condition is met
3) Can the 4th Kroxigor fit in the 2nd rank? No, because it would invalidate the 2nd condition by making the first rank smaller than the second. In order that condition 2 be met, condition 3 comes into play by allowing the 4th Kroxigor to go into the subsequent rank. This way, condition 2 and 3 are both met.
4) This condition only comes into play and must be met when there aren't enough skinks left. There are enough skinks left, therefore this condition isn't applicable.

C isn't necessary at all to fulfill the 4 conditions established in the rules. You could throw C out the window because one it's not in the rules, and two, all 4 conditions are met already with the way that unit is ranked up. Rather, C is not required for this unit composition to adhere to all requirements written in the Spawn-kin rule. All conditions are resolved. Therefore, extrapolation C is unecessary and not needed.

Edit: another example of where a C clause isn't necessary is your own example that you gave. "If your wizard can take a scroll, give him one." There is nothing more needed to complete the logic. Nothing is left in limbo. And no "how" is needed either.

Furthermore, deductive reasoning only requires at least two clauses. 3 are not required like you are saying. Inductive reasoning would need a third clause but that's because an inference is being made from the other two statements. But gain that goes back to why you making an inference through clause C makes your view on the rule an interpretation. Still the interpretation is superfluous to the fulfillment of the written rule.

 

[rd4]

Wow, wasn't expecting the discussion there! Guys, I'm only asking as I don't have the army book yet (disgraceful, I know, but my local store hasnt restocked yet, and I refuse to shop elsewhere, I'm a very loyal customer ) I didn't realise that there was a minimum requirement of skinks.
Also, Sleboda, I've been reading your series of battle reports recently, they've given me a lot of insight! Any chance you could message me with general tactics against DE? And any thoughts on the troglodon and bastiladon? Love the models, and I want to make them work in my army
Thanks, Rory

 

[Gor-rok]

If, for some reason, you were obligated to set up your unit so that all kroxigor could fit into the second rank, why would they include a provision that tells you where to put them if they don't?

 

[Morewar]

Sorry to derail but how would tenhehauin be placed in a skrox unit? In the front rank(displacing the kroxigor behind him)? Can that kroxigor attack? Or would the 2nd rank Kroc take precedence and tenhehauin be placed behind the krox?

 

[hdctambien]

Sorry to derail but how would tenhehauin be placed in a skrox unit? In the front rank(displacing the kroxigor behind him)? Can that kroxigor attack? Or would the 2nd rank Kroc take precedence and tenhehauin be placed behind the krox?

I believe Tenhenauin has to be placed in teh 2nd rank and displace a Kroxigor. A "2nd rank" kroxigor is actually in the 4th rank of the unit (the unit counts ranks by skink bases, not kroxigor bases.) So those Kroxgior wouldn't be able to attack.

 

[Asamu]

Sorry to derail but how would tenhehauin be placed in a skrox unit? In the front rank(displacing the kroxigor behind him)? Can that kroxigor attack? Or would the 2nd rank Kroc take precedence and tenhehauin be placed behind the krox?

The kroxigor behind him could attack if your unit was in horde formation. It is in the 3rd rank, and whether or not a unit can attack is determined by what rank it is in, not whether or not it is in b2b with a model in combat.

 

[hdctambien]

Sorry to derail but how would tenhehauin be placed in a skrox unit? In the front rank(displacing the kroxigor behind him)? Can that kroxigor attack? Or would the 2nd rank Kroc take precedence and tenhehauin be placed behind the krox?

The kroxigor behind him could attack if your unit was in horde formation. It is in the 3rd rank, and whether or not a unit can attack is determined by what rank it is in, not whether or not it is in b2b with a model in combat.

Kroxigor cannot technically be in the "3rd rank" of a Skrox unit.

EDIT:

I was thinking of Tetto'eko, not Tehenhauin. Asamu is right, Tehenhauin could push one Kroxigor into the 3rd rank as long as there was no room for that Kroxigor to be placed in the 2nd rank. An if that unit was in horde formation, then that 3rd rank kroxigor could attack.

I'll leave the rest of my pre-edit post because I'm interested in the hypothetical situation I posed at the end.

END EDIT

Spawn-kin Rule:

"Whenever you are required to work out the mixed unit's frontage or ranks (and therefore supporting attacks and rank bonus) count as if the footprint of the entire mixed unit was filled with skinks"

So a unit of Skrox has ranks like this:

Rank 1 SSSSSS
Rank 2 KKKKKK
Rank 3 KKKKKK
Rank 4 SSSSSS

This is nice because we get a full +3 rank bonus even though it only looks like there are 3 ranks of units. However, it means the 3rd Rank doesn't really exist as far as the Kroxigor are concerned.

If there were Kroxigor in the "3rd" rank it would look like this:

Rank 1 SSSSSS
Rank 2 KKKKKK
Rank 3 KKKKKK
Rank 4 KKSSSS
Rank 5 KKSSSS

That 4th kroxigor is actually in the 4th rank because the 2nd rank kroxigor take up both the 2nd and 3rd ranks. However, you could work out the formation so that there were some Skinks in the 3rd rank and those skinks would get to attack in a horde formation.

Here's an interesting hypothetical. What happens if all the skinks are killed from a Skrox unit but some Kroxigor remain? Is that unit still a Skrox unit that is using Skink sized bases to determine ranks? Or does it become a Kroxigor unit? Would 3 Kroxigor remaining from a Skrox unit count as having 2 ranks, or just one?

Rank 1 KKKKKK
Rank 2 KKKKKK

If you cast Regrowth on that unit and Skinks came back to life, would that

 

[n810]

....
END EDIT

Spawn-kin Rule:

"Whenever you are required to work out the mixed unit's frontage or ranks (and therefore supporting attacks and rank bonus) count as if the footprint of the entire mixed unit was filled with skinks"

So a unit of Skrox has ranks like this:

Rank 1 SSSSSS
Rank 2 KKKKKK
Rank 3 KKKKKK
Rank 4 SSSSSS

This is nice because we get a full +3 rank bonus even though it only looks like there are 3 ranks of units. However, it means the 3rd Rank doesn't really exist as far as the Kroxigor are concerned.

If there were Kroxigor in the "3rd" rank it would look like this: (YEP IN THE 4TH AND 5TH SKINK RANKS)
(NOT SURE YOU ARE EVEN ALLOWED TO PUT HIM THERE THOUGH)
Rank 1 SSSSSS
Rank 2 KKKKKK
Rank 3 KKKKKK
Rank 4 KKSSSS
Rank 5 KKSSSS

That 4th kroxigor is actually in the 4th rank because the 2nd rank kroxigor take up both the 2nd and 3rd ranks. However, you could work out the formation so that there were some Skinks in the 3rd rank and those skinks would get to attack in a horde formation.

Here's an interesting hypothetical. What happens if all the skinks are killed from a Skrox unit but some Kroxigor remain? Is that unit still a Skrox unit that is using Skink sized bases to determine ranks? Or does it become a Kroxigor unit? Would 3 Kroxigor remaining from a Skrox unit count as having 2 ranks, or just one?

Rank 1 KKKKKK
Rank 2 KKKKKK

If you cast Regrowth on that unit and Skinks came back to life, would that
(NOPE AFTER ALL THE SKINKS ARE DEAD IT BECOMES A KROXIGOR UNIT)

BUT THIS IS POSSIBLE IF ONLY A FEW SKINKS ARE LEFT:

Rank 1 KKKKSS<---
Rank 2 KKKKKK