7th Ed. Skink heroes on stegadons

[strewart]

So last night while drinking, I came to the profound conclusion that skinks on stegadons might not be quite as good as they look... Chief with stegadon lance? Sure you get 2d6 impact hitsand will kill a bunch, but the hero has a 3+ save that can't be improved and really bad toughness. Any hero at all in the enemy unit can just target the skink hero in combat and kill him with ease, even a lot of unit champions will have no trouble knocking him down. Which effectively sinks the 2d6 impact hits and a touch over 100 points.

Engine of the gods? Very expensive, pretty good but again to get its full effectiveness it needs to see combat. The priest has only t2, and sure he gets a 2+ armour save but again it isn't that hard for combat characters to target him and squish him. Then you lose a lot of points worth of stuff. You lose 2-3 levels of magic, whatever items he had, AND the engine of the gods powers, basically leaving a naked stegadon ancient.

As soon as either of these see combat, which both really eed to to get the points back especially the chief, they are dead... It looks to me like oyu could save a lot of points by just taking stegadons without heroes. Am I missing something?

 

[Aparach]

Keep in mind that steggies has movement 6 and can pivot for free(do to beeing monster). You should be able to monouver quit well and pick your fight. Hopefully you dont end up in the front of a fully ranked Chaos unit
Hasn't seen the book yet, but I guess lizardmen still has to take advantage of their movement to fare well against the toughest of foes

 

[didleoman]

EoTG provides:

points denial
ranged defense for a certain range for possibly a lot of units
artificial boost to a priest in power via cost and dice
you lose 360 sight but since steg is still a large target you can see over anything (and the free pivot)
armor for a priest who usually has none to speak of
movement doesn't change
still causes terror

the chief is harder to defend but they do have great flanking power or frontal power that can be able to destroy units on the turn it charges... trouble may arise if it gets bogged down in combat but that can be said for a lot of things

 

[Revien]

I think the skink chief is totally worth it. I played a game with the new rules against my friends empire army, and the chief on a normal stegadon managed to kill 15 knights in 2 turns. 5 With one lucky bolt thrower shot, and then when he charged, the impact hits just devastated them. The EotG did get killed turn one by a cannon however.

 

[Dalkarius]

So last night while drinking, I came to the profound conclusion that skinks on stegadons might not be quite as good as they look... Chief with stegadon lance? Sure you get 2d6 impact hitsand will kill a bunch, but the hero has a 3+ save that can't be improved and really bad toughness. Any hero at all in the enemy unit can just target the skink hero in combat and kill him with ease, even a lot of unit champions will have no trouble knocking him down. Which effectively sinks the 2d6 impact hits and a touch over 100 points.

Engine of the gods? Very expensive, pretty good but again to get its full effectiveness it needs to see combat. The priest has only t2, and sure he gets a 2+ armour save but again it isn't that hard for combat characters to target him and squish him. Then you lose a lot of points worth of stuff. You lose 2-3 levels of magic, whatever items he had, AND the engine of the gods powers, basically leaving a naked stegadon ancient.

As soon as either of these see combat, which both really eed to to get the points back especially the chief, they are dead... It looks to me like oyu could save a lot of points by just taking stegadons without heroes. Am I missing something?

Well, if you want you can throw a Skink Chief on the Ancient Stegadon, giving him a 2+ armor save, which is nothing to sneeze at, plus 2D6+2 Str 6 impact hits...? Not even heavy cav can survive that without some serious damage.

As for the Engine of the Gods, also keep in mind that thing can dish out combat hurt during the magic phase with his "every enemy within 2D6" takes D6 str 4", that'll clear up at least one rank to give ya some extra edge. Also, keep in mind they still cause Terror, which has caused many potential Skink killers to run with their tails between their legs. So yeah, they're a little squishy, but they're not bad at hammering out ridiculous amounts of damage.

@ Revein: Stupid cannon.

 

[Revien]

I had a second battle against my chaos friend, and this time the EotG wreaked havok. The level 3 Skink priest destroyed large amounts of heavily armoured troops while the engine dealt out carnage to everything. Poor chaos never stood a chance
In smaller battles the stegadons would be the attention of every ranged thing your enemy has, so they may go down fast, but in 2000+ the slann should be able to back them up nicely.
If a skink priest is riding a stegadon, and it enters combat, can he still cast spells, or is he counted as in close combat?
Also, the stegadon warspear gives 2d6+1 impact hits, not +2.

 

[nyyman]

How come you guys already have the new rulebooks?
Anyway, I think that I would get Skin Priest on EotG only because the new cool model! Not to mention the new cool and cheesy rules.
And if anyone can say that 2d6 S6 impact hits aint worth it, can challenge my Skink Chief on Stegadon with that lance if I get the charge. Then you may complain about the cheesyness, not the badness of it.

 

[Revien]

The rules book are on display in many stores, and you can read through them.

 

[strewart]

The problem is impact hits (even 2d6) only hurt the unit, not the unit champ or any heroes. You would be lucky to kill both, though I guess the skink and the steg still get to attack before retaliation.

Of course flanks are a good option, but I think a lot of people will try very very hard to stop a steg with a hero on it getting to their flank. And a lot of opponents would flee rather than let you hit.

@ Putting the chief on a steg ancient, that is an extra 50 points or so which is a large investment, and gives you giant blowpipes instead of a bolt thrower. They seem very effective, but I cannot realistically see them working so don't want to use them.

 

[didleoman]

impact hits will kill the command if there are no other regular models in the unit, but each model killed on that front line is one less counter attack

even though the command unit isn't killed until last they are seen in two ways: "dragged out of the way of a killing shot and spending time stepping back into the fray" or "a member of the unit steps forward and picks up the fallen flagbearer and musician belongings"
in either case the counter attack is considered lost

so if you kill... say 5 models on a 5 model frontage... that means there are no counters and your opponent needs to roll double 1's (if he isn't ITP) and overrunning


of course your opponent could flee from it... strategic retreat
its all about predicting the outcome of a movement...

if my target flees will i be left open
if my target stands does that target have support to flank me
does my stegadon have unit support of my own

indeed it's a huge amount of points and it boils down to play style

 

[hellbreaker]

the only thought of using a chief on a steg that i can think of is maybe as something to just spend points on, nothing else. the EoTG in the otherhand i see VERY useful!

a ward save, MUCH damage to my deamon friend, and the possibility to have lore of metal on my priest to counter my WoC friend. Indeed VERY useful.

 

[Revien]

I think skink priests can only cast from heavens. After reading through the rulebook multiple times, I could not find anywhere which said that the EotG allowed them to choose their lore.

 

[msinosic]

I think skink priests can only cast from heavens. After reading through the rulebook multiple times, I could not find anywhere which said that the EotG allowed them to choose their lore.

I think the confusion comes from the fact that the engine can choose any one Lore of Magic from the Warhammer Rulebook and all casting values from that lore are reducted by one.

They can affect another Lore in order to benefit the Slann which may of taken that other Lore but they themselves can only use Heavens.

 

[hellbreaker]

hmm, that's too bad. well well, I'd better get a slann then.

 

[biggreen]

I agree with you. it too point heavy, the AS only applies to the mount and not the riders, the five skinks will die faster than thunder bolt, since must war machine have a S4 or higher to their attack that bonus of being mount is gone. so happen to stagi running with head on it shoulder. I see the benfit in legendary battle than i will taking EOTG. i will not see in a 2250 game. I love the model and buy one for skink priest and chief and model collector item.

 

[Dalkarius]

I agree with you. it too point heavy, the AS only applies to the mount and not the riders, the five skinks will die faster than thunder bolt, since must war machine have a S4 or higher to their attack that bonus of being mount is gone. so happen to stagi running with head on it shoulder. I see the benfit in legendary battle than i will taking EOTG. i will not see in a 2250 game. I love the model and buy one for skink priest and chief and model collector item.

Uh, those skinks aren't THAT easy to kill. The Howdah on a regular Steggy gives all riders a 3+ armor save that can't be improved in any way, and the Ancient Steggy gives all Rider a 2+ armor save, so the Skink crews, by now means, are easy to kill.

 

[strewart]

impact hits will kill the command if there are no other regular models in the unit, but each model killed on that front line is one less counter attack

even though the command unit isn't killed until last they are seen in two ways: "dragged out of the way of a killing shot and spending time stepping back into the fray" or "a member of the unit steps forward and picks up the fallen flagbearer and musician belongings"
in either case the counter attack is considered lost

so if you kill... say 5 models on a 5 model frontage... that means there are no counters and your opponent needs to roll double 1's (if he isn't ITP) and overrunning

Not quite... Yes, the musician and the standard will die and others take the place, losing the attacks for that round, I never claimed otherwise. But the unit champion doesn't get replaced, he is treated a lot like a character. And it is his attacks that I was referring to.

Uh, those skinks aren't THAT easy to kill. The Howdah on a regular Steggy gives all riders a 3+ armor save that can't be improved in any way, and the Ancient Steggy gives all Rider a 2+ armor save, so the Skink crews, by now means, are easy to kill.

It can't be improved in any way, but that is bad for us.. It means the skink hero cannot get any extra bonus for armour or shields (which means the lists that have them so far are a bit of a waste of points...) but it doesn't mean the armour save can't be reduced. So strength 5 will reduce it by 2 as normal for example, and anything made to get through armour will easily slaughter the skinks.

 

[msinosic]

It can't be improved in any way, but that is bad for us.. It means the skink hero cannot get any extra bonus for armour or shields (which means the lists that have them so far are a bit of a waste of points...) but it doesn't mean the armour save can't be reduced. So strength 5 will reduce it by 2 as normal for example, and anything made to get through armour will easily slaughter the skinks.

Do you think the 'can't be improved' implies that you can never have better than 3+ for the Stegadon but if you wore Light Armor and were hit by a Strength 4 (-1 Save) Hit that you would take an armor save of 3+? or would it be 4+?

 

[hellbreaker]

it clearly states 'that cannot be improved in any way', i believe this means you only get 4+ save.

 

[Dalkarius]

@Strewart

I highly disagree, unless we're only talking about the regular stegadon in which case I think it's a waste of time to not take an Ancient. Str 6 and giant blowpipes? That will allow the Stegadon enough manuverablilty to kill most enemies afar. Not alot of creatures are Str 5 and move as fast to begin with, and the riders will have a 2+ armor save and the mount a 3+, great defenses and a CRUSHING charge. I think it's foolish to talk bad about the new steggies, how bout you give them a try before you slander their name?

Also, since you don't have to buy them armor, give them a decent magic item, Ward save? Perhaps the Steggy lance? Your choice.