8th Ed. Skavenpelt Banner rules question

[laribold]

Let's say I'm running a Scar Vet BSB with the Skavenpelt Banner in a unit of TG, thus giving the unit frenzy by virtue of his banner.

Now, we get this unit into combat and the poor old BSB gets killed in the first round by something with a higher initiative step than both him and the TG.

The question is, does the unit still have frenzy?

At the start of the combat round they did have frenzy, but when they come to strike the item that was bestowing frenzy is no longer around. The BRB rules for frenzy states:
"Models retain their Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat, at which point the enemy have succeeded in knocking them into a less fanatical state and the Frenzy (together with all associated rules) is lost."

So does this rule apply whether or not the BSB and his banner are alive at that point?

I'm a little confused by this...

Ta!

 

[Skinquisitor]

Let me answer your question with another one!
Have you seen horn of krygor? It grants frenzy for monsters, monstrous beasts, cavalry, etc etc, untill the next movement phase. If the unit kept its frenzy even after the bsb-s death, then once used, these creatures would be frenzied till beaten.

 

[Mr Phat]

by that logic the bsb could ride from unit to unit granting frenzy to the entire army.

 

[Scalenex]

by that logic the bsb could ride from unit to unit granting frenzy to the entire army.

From a fluff standpoint that makes sense, but I wouldn't try that logic with an opponent.

 

[Mr Phat]

by that logic the bsb could ride from unit to unit granting frenzy to the entire army.

From a fluff standpoint that makes sense, but I wouldn't try that logic with an opponent.

neither would I!

"all models in a unit with skavenpelt banner gain the frenzy special rule"

BSB dies
Condition for frenzy: all models are in a unit with skavenpelt banner.
condition check: banner is gone, models are not in a unit with it.
Condition false: unit does not have frenzy.

I reserve my Skavenbanner for the slann in a TG unit with razorstandard on it

 

[laribold]

Thanks for that Phatmotha, that makes it pretty clear to me.
It was just the wording of the BRB rules on losing Frenzy that I couldn't quite square up.

I can see the reason for putting it on your Slann in your TG block, I just have a serious aversion to putting my Slann into my TG block (miscasts & the fear of my Slann getting anywhere near combat!)

Guess I'll just have to hope that my BSB toughs out that first round of combat... (also makes me more interested in running the TG as a horde to try and keep him out of harms way on one end)

 

[VampTeddy]

by that logic the bsb could ride from unit to unit granting frenzy to the entire army.

From a fluff standpoint that makes sense, but I wouldn't try that logic with an opponent.

neither would I!

"all models in a unit with skavenpelt banner gain the frenzy special rule"

BSB dies
Condition for frenzy: all models are in a unit with skavenpelt banner.
condition check: banner is gone, models are not in a unit with it.
Condition false: unit does not have frenzy.

I reserve my Skavenbanner for the slann in a TG unit with razorstandard on it

I agree with the intent, but i completely diagree with the argument.

The skavenpelt banner states "gained" it does not states "have"

Gains is some you get, the definition is : To come into possession or use of; acquire:

whilst the definition of have is : to hold or maintain as a possession, privilege, or entitlement


Meaning that that i come into possession of frenzy after receiving the banner, it is something i add, as if it was an additive bonus. This stays, since it is something i came into possesion of when i entered the banner into the unit, and not because i entered the banner into the unit (as would have been relevant, had the wording been - have).

As mentioned, i completely agree that the banner should be interpreted as stating "have" but as worded, i think from a rules-core viewpoint that the frenzy is permanent (until lost in combat).

 

[SilverFaith]

So... you could, theoretically, have a character with SPB jump between units to give multiple of them frenzy?

That sounds kinda stupid, honestly, though so is the fact that it doesn't actually tell us whether or not it stays on through frenzy-losing events - If we lose combat, we lose frenzy, but since we have a banner that grants frenzy, we should technically regain it.

However, that line of reasoning also means that removing the standard bearer (killing, leaving unit, etc) would immediately end the effect.

Meh. We generally play it like you say it should be played - it grants frenzy, which stays on the unit, even if the banner is removed for whatever reason.

 

[Screamer]

The way it's written the BSB could ride from unit to unit and bestow frenzy upon the entire army, since the only way to lose Frenzy once you've gotten it is to lose combat.

And if you lose combat when the banner is still in the unit the unit should immediately regain frenzy since the banner is still "active/functioning"

 

[Basa210]

for me, i love using SV Cold One BSB-Skavenpelt banner with a minimum width of 6 guys. giving 3 attacks to both cold ones and saurus riders! haha. additionally, the bsb prevents the whole unit from being stupid.

 

[Pinktaco]

The true question is... Why would you do it? Why not give it to the slann and not worry about any of that.

 

[laribold]

Because I hate having my Slann anywhere near combat.

Because I hate IFing on 3 dice and blowing up a quarter of my own TG unit.

Because I have nicely converted foot Scar Vet BSB.

Because having 3A TG with Pred Fighter chews through stuff like a dream.

 

[eron12]

for me, i love using SV Cold One BSB-Skavenpelt banner with a minimum width of 6 guys. giving 3 attacks to both cold ones and saurus riders! haha. additionally, the bsb prevents the whole unit from being stupid.

How does the BSB prevent the unit from being stupid?

 

[Pinktaco]

for me, i love using SV Cold One BSB-Skavenpelt banner with a minimum width of 6 guys. giving 3 attacks to both cold ones and saurus riders! haha. additionally, the bsb prevents the whole unit from being stupid.

How does the BSB prevent the unit from being stupid?

shouldn't really matter either. You have to take tests regardless and with Ld8 cold blooded and a BSB you'll hardly ever fail.