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Silmarillion Discussion

DeathBringer125
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DeathBringer125

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I was curious how many other True Tolkien fans their are here who might want to discuss the Silmarillion! I have started reading it for the third time and have been pondering some questions that I had in the first two reads. Firstly, whether the Valar should have brought the Elves to Valinor, and Secondly how the Themes of Iluvatar (in the Ainulindalë) relate to the ages of Middle Earth (if at all). Any thoughts/feedback/questions welcome!
 
I have read it for the first time just over a year ago and after that read the Children of Hurin release. Still have to read the Beren en Luthien and Fall of Gondolin editions.
Also have the Unfinshed tales on the shelf to plough though ;)

So I love to read Tolkien's works but mostly lack the time to do so.
(also want to re-read the Lord of the Rings after 20+ years)

Grrr, !mrahil
 
DeathBringer125 said:
Firstly, whether the Valar should have brought the Elves to Valinor, and Secondly how the Themes of Iluvatar (in the Ainulindalë) relate to the ages of Middle Earth (if at all). Any thoughts/feedback/questions welcome!
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I read the Silmarillion twice and I barely even understand what your questions are asking.

After some Googling to remind myself what this meant. The Themes of Illuvatar are when the gods of Middle Earth sung creation into existence and Melkor/Morgoth added strife and discord to the song.

Given that the First age is defined by conflict with Morgoth and the Second Age, Third, and Fourth ages are more or less shaped by Sauron or a conspicuous absence of Sauron. And Sauron was Morgoth's lieutenant the themes have everything to do with Melkor messing with it or Sauron carrying on his legacy.

Much like everything bad in Norse mythology is caused by Loki. Either Loki directly, Loki's children, or beings Loki manipulated.

It's always hard to talk to use the word should when it comes to the actions of gods and angels.
 
I definitely should have elaborated more, these things are fresh in my mind because I just read them. My hypothesis on the themes which seems to have some support is that each Theme corresponds to a period in the Silmarillion with the Third (by Iluvatar) beginning with the coming of the Elves.

As to the second question I definitely agree that it's a hard question to ask with "should" but the basis of the question is this quote from the Silmarillion after the Valar debating amongst themselves over whether they should bring the Elves to Valinor (Ulmo namely was opposed to this and it mentions that others were as well but not whom). "Mandos broke his silence, saying: 'So it is doomed.' From this summons came many worse that afterwards befell."
(Quick note for anyone who does not know when Tolkien uses the word Doom he means it in the older sense which basically means fate. Doom is not necessarily bad)
 
DeathBringer125 said:
(Quick note for anyone who does not know when Tolkien uses the word Doom he means it in the older sense which basically means fate. Doom is not necessarily bad)
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That bit of context would have helped me earlier.
 
DeathBringer125 said:
@Scalenex what is your favorite story within the Silmarillion?
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Ungolient the Spider's initial attack and Beren the One-handed.

These are the only two stories I recalled with clarity after reading the Silmarillion for the first time(at age 14). My second go was in my 20s. Late thirties to now, I use the internet Tolkien scholar resources to cherry pick lore without reading the whole mahrlect thing.

Now that I'm trying to create my own fantasy lore (with extensive attention spent on my own gods and goddesses), I'm paying more attention to the Valar and Maia.
 
I really love the story where Aulë creates the Dwarves. Because 1. Dwarves nuff said and 2. It paints a clearer picture of the Valar and Eru.

I also love the tale of Túrin Turambar as well. Especially the role of Anglachel the Black Blade. Leads to soooo many good discussions (I ran a Tolkien book club). Lots of questions you can ask of the text in that story.

(Side note: my rule in the Book Club is no bringing outside material to the conversation (albeit this rule is occasionally broken for good reason), all questions should be from the text and answered by the text alone. Questions such as "Should the Valar have led the Elves to Valinor?" Or "What role did Anglachel play in Túrin's downfall" are the type of question that gets asked. Ultimately there is no definitive answer to these questions but when people focus on trying to answer them you discover so much within the text you wouldn't have noticed before.)
 
DeathBringer125 said:
I really love the story where Aulë creates the Dwarves. Because 1. Dwarves nuff said and 2. It paints a clearer picture of the Valar and Eru.
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And it's short and easy to understand. Dwarves play a pretty small role in the Silmarillion :D
 
I've listened to the Silmarillion twice on audiobook (though the first time I gave up halfway through... the second time is the first in which I've listened to it the whole way through). I also have read the Children of Hurin... easily the most grimdark story of Middle Earth.

I'm probably the one person who really doesn't give a monkeys about Beren and Luthien... we already have it once with Aragorn and Arwen, I'm not interested in a prequel. While the whole scenario of it reflecting Tolkien's worship of his wife is touching and admirable, I can no longer identify with it personally because girls in this day and age don't seem to treasure that sort of affection from a man anymore. I was very prone to putting girls on a pedestal in my teens, my fault entirely, and I've been insulted enough by women willing to use me purely as a validation dispenser to realise that it's no longer a respectable or beneficial mindset for a man to have. Now I force myself to rein in a lot of that desire to show affection until I am ever lucky enough to meet a lady who proves herself worthy of it, and make sure to hold my self-respect at the same level of importance as serving others.

There is no doubt that the creation story in the beginning is iconic, and foreboding considering how we are living very much in an age where evil is corrupting what was established by goodness.

Not enough Dwarves in it though. Dwarves always seem to have been given short (pun not intended) shrift in favour of Elves and particularly manlings. The one thing that really irks me about Middle Earth is how man is portrayed as a younger race that inherits the world while the Dwarves and Elves die out, yet man as a race is most obviously inferior to both. That's why in Escalonia I chose to reverse this and portray man as the first of the Gods' creations, the basic template for all the other more powerful humanoids around - Lizardkin, Elves, Dwarves, Tarkalians, Rhacids e.t.c.
 
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Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl said:
While the whole scenario of it reflecting Tolkien's worship of his wife is touching and admirable, I can no longer identify with it personally because girls in this day and age don't seem to treasure that sort of affection from a man anymore. I was very prone to putting girls on a pedestal in my teens, my fault entirely, and I've been insulted enough by women willing to use me purely as a validation dispenser to realise that it's no longer a respectable or beneficial mindset for a man to have.
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I have had similar experiences where my pre-existing romantic notions got replaced by cynicism after exposure to reality.

I have pondered how this will impact romance, courtship, sex, and families in Scarterra.

Should this reflect my cynical world view on this now or an idealistic view of what I want the world to be?

I could also aim to write what I think readers would enjoy reading. What I mean is in fiction, there are only about five or six archetypal romance stories that all romantic stories are based on. The most popular romantic story among a plurality of women is some variation of the Beauty and the Beast story. A woman civilizes a dangerous man (wins over the bad boy). There are hybrids. Twilight, covers three archetypal romantic stories: taming the bad boy, love triangles, and forbidden fruit.

I'm not sure what men in general look for, but personally my favorite romantic comedies are Groundhog Day, The Princess Bride, and The Truman Show. The plucky everyman male protagonist gets the girl after demonstrating courage and perseverance while also having an exciting and novel adventure.

Thus far, I mostly end up writing asexual heroes that have adventures that have nothing to do with sex and love. Maybe that's why I like writing about Lizardmen so much. They reproduce asexually and effectively are androgynous.

I'm still mulling over options and I am famously indecisive, but the front runner I have for how to deal with romance in Scarterra is to give every Scarterran race I develop their own separate version of "normal".

Gnomes are likely to represent an old school monogamous marriages and very supportive loving extended families. My first gnome protagonist is going to be separated from his family for his whole adventure but he is going to rely on the wisdom and teachings of his parents, grand parents, aunts and uncles to navigate the challenges and obstacles he is presented with.

That doesn't mean, humans, elves, dwarves, tengku, kalazotz and satyrs have to follow suit. That said, my heart belongs to gnomes so in a way gnomes represent what I thing the world should look like.

As of yet, I don't have a plan for any particular group to represent a dystopian version of sexual and relationship dynamics though I might do something like that for merfolk and the other sentient races of Scaraqua (the sea).
 
NIGHTBRINGER said:
Is this legit? :D
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