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8th Ed. Sharing is caring. Kroxigor make me sad

98% for panics, but what about lost combat break tests?
 
NexS1 said:
98% for panics, but what about lost combat break tests?
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Assuming no stubborn/steadfast is involved, things will still be equal when comparing to the same combat resolution.

I don't get why people think so poorly of cold blooded. It's awesome, and even snake-eyes is actually feasable too roll with 3d6 drop highest+reroll.
 
The problem with point-reduction instead of boost is that I think the reduction would have to be too great if it would have an impact.

make them 37 pts instead of 50 = 8 instead of 6 kroxies for the same amount of points.

But I think that reduction is a bit too much (compared to other MI-units)

But if they get better survivability, 6 would be a better choice than now, even with the same point cost. And that would mean better AS (3+), better T (T5) or wardsave (6+? 5+?). Better WS? don't think so, it would only make a difference against WS4-units.
 
Someone mentioned how maybe a change in scaly skin on the whole. Say always a 6+ no matter the strenght. The good part about that is that is also makes every other of our units better.

I'm writing on my phone so my posts may appear odd.
 
Pinktaco said:
Someone mentioned how maybe a change in scaly skin on the whole. Say always a 6+ no matter the strenght. The good part about that is that is also makes every other of our units better.

I'm writing on my phone so my posts may appear odd.
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My primary reason for REALLY wanting this change, is that it would allow monsters a chance of surviving even those insane-S artillery (assuming they don't also ignore armour as well as S9/10.
 
Why not give incentive to field Skrox units like the fluff talks about. Either make those Krox in skink blocks cheaper, or what's more in line(ish) with the fluff: have the Kroxigors get boosts to their stat lines when in a skink cohort. Don't change Krox cost, change it to 7:1 ratio for balance so that it encourages you to take a unit of 14 skinks and 2 Krox, and hand wave it by saying the skinks tell them where to hit or give them instructions in battle = +1 to Krox WS and he gets poisoned attacks. Would run a little expensive at about 215 ish points for the unit but it would be a way to get 6 WS 4 S5 poisoned attacks around and help out just a tiny bit with the clutter in the special units.

After playing that other miniature game for a while, I would really like to see GW improve the synergy between units that are supposed to be used together.
 
That's opening up a can of worms.. then we'd be leaning into 40k rules and I REALLY don't want that floodgate open.
 
What can of worm are we talking about?
 
Has anyone ever tried running 18 Kroxigors in a horde formation? I ran the math and a horde of 30 witch elves running in the front with chariot support loses. Sure, they wipe out the back rank of your kroxigor horde but then the kroxigor actually win and have 11-12 models left while only the front rank survives for the elves.

I think with a lore of life slann for support, it could be a powerful block. Of course, it's also 900 points...
 
Kaleidoscope said:
Has anyone ever tried running 18 Kroxigors in a horde formation? I ran the math and a horde of 30 witch elves running in the front with chariot support loses. Sure, they wipe out the back rank of your kroxigor horde but then the kroxigor actually win and have 11-12 models left while only the front rank survives for the elves.

I think with a lore of life slann for support, it could be a powerful block. Of course, it's also 900 points...
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You math most be wrong. Remember that they're probably sporting armour piercing banner, super frenzy and 5+ ward, reroll to hit AND wound. Not to mention that they're probably also 40 models.

They'll remove 7 models before you hit. With stomps and predatory fighter you'll do 13 wounds on them, so they can hit back with close to full strenght. Well probably lose 13 models before we get to strike a second time. That would leave 5 kroxies and an almost full witch elf unit.

That's assuming our kroxies didn't flee the first time they lost :)

Oh and I didn't account for the death hag.

I'd much rather use poison, salamanders and hold them with an oldblood. They can't touch him and he's holding up 800pts of their army.
 
Pinktaco said:
You math most be wrong. Remember that they're probably sporting armour piercing banner, super frenzy and 5+ ward, reroll to hit AND wound. Not to mention that they're probably also 40 models.
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They also have poison, which is very important to remember since we are usually T4 or better.

Do remember though, that if you win just 1 combat against them, they lose their super frenzy from witchbrew, and is reduced to regular frenzy with their cauldron. it only grants models who already has frenzy the "super frenzy", so if they lose, they are back to the standard +1 attack.

And of course, -3 to LD when restraining a frenzy charge makes them ridiculously easy to bait. They could be 60 witch elves, and they still wouldn't be a threat, since baiting them with redirector is so incredibly easy.

I have never had a fair fight against witch elves with the deathhag and cauldron. If you have, you have messed up somewhere. Nothing, not even kroxigors, should do it. Doesn't matter if you CAN, you still shouldn't do it. It's just pointless.
 
SilverFaith said:
Do remember though, that if you win just 1 combat against them, they lose their super frenzy from witchbrew, and is reduced to regular frenzy with their cauldron. it only grants models who already has frenzy the "super frenzy", so if they lose, they are back to the standard +1 attack.
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Note that the Cauldron does not automatically give Frenzy or "Superfrenzy" -- it needs to cast a bound spell to do it. Also, if the Witches did lose combat while under the effect of that bound spell (unlikely), they would lose both their normal Frenzy and the effect of the spell, reducing them to 2 attacks each (base 1 + add. hand weapon).
 
Okay, so I realize that I have no idea what the cauldron does. If you take that out (but keep the re rolls to wound... wherever that comes from) and keep poison the math comes out to 21.5 wounds to the kroxigor and 20 wounds from the kroxigor. The deciding factor is if they break the 21 wound threshold which peels off another kroxigor. If you have 12 kroxigors that survive then not only did you take 1.5 less wounds, you also do 21.5 wounds. If you can win that first combat, even if they have 40 witch elves, they'll be down to 2 ranks of 10 and won't be steadfast anymore (two ranks of monstrous infantry). If we start adding in banners and other things, then you're adding too much to the elves I think. At that point, you could start assuming buffs on the kroxigors from a nearby slann/skink priest. Even wyssans would shift the combat massively.
 
For the purposes of this scenario, the Cauldron does 2 things of importance:

1) It gives all Witches in its unit a 5+ Ward save

2) It allows all friendly units within 6" (including the Witch unit it is in) to reroll failed to-wound rolls.
 
Dyvim Tvar said:
Note that the Cauldron does not automatically give Frenzy or "Superfrenzy" -- it needs to cast a bound spell to do it. Also, if the Witches did lose combat while under the effect of that bound spell (unlikely), they would lose both their normal Frenzy and the effect of the spell, reducing them to 2 attacks each (base 1 + add. hand weapon).
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But a Hag with Witchbrew DOES grant it automatically, and a combo of them CAN grant the +2 attacks.

And we generally rule that, since witchbrew grants frenzy or enhances an existing frenzy as a passive effect, they will never lose frenzy, only the super frenzy. they might lose frenzy from a lost combat, but witchbrew just renews the effect.
 
Kaleidoscope said:
Okay, so I realize that I have no idea what the cauldron does. If you take that out (but keep the re rolls to wound... wherever that comes from) and keep poison the math comes out to 21.5 wounds to the kroxigor and 20 wounds from the kroxigor. The deciding factor is if they break the 21 wound threshold which peels off another kroxigor. If you have 12 kroxigors that survive then not only did you take 1.5 less wounds, you also do 21.5 wounds. If you can win that first combat, even if they have 40 witch elves, they'll be down to 2 ranks of 10 and won't be steadfast anymore (two ranks of monstrous infantry). If we start adding in banners and other things, then you're adding too much to the elves I think. At that point, you could start assuming buffs on the kroxigors from a nearby slann/skink priest. Even wyssans would shift the combat massively.
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You are somehow messing up. 12 kroxies + champ, PF and stlmp, will only generate 14 kills. Remember though the death hag have 6 S4 poison and AP attacks. I'm fairly certain you'll only have around 10 kroxies left after their attacks so you are easily behind CR with 27-28. We don't have a banner nor enough ranks nor the chance of doing 25+ kills. We'll do something like 11-12 kills and thus lose by a million.

Do not engage then without +1 armour. Even then a death hag with +2S sword can chop through most heroes. She can take off 1 wound a turn on an oldblood with armour of destiny and dawnstone. She's cruel.
 
True that a Brewhag in the unit can up the attacks by 2.

However, I think you are playing this wrongly, and I speak as a long-time Dark Elf player. Witchbrew says it gives Frenzy, and the rule for Frenzy says it can be lost when combat is lost. Compare the wording of Witchbrew to the wording of the Berzerker Sword, which says the Frenzy it gives cannot be lost.

Regardless, I am staying far away from Cauldron-backed Witches unless I kill almost all of them with Salamanders first.
 
Kaleidoscope -

Are you remembering to include the fact that, with Cauldron, the unit will have a 5+ Wardsave vs. your Krox attacks? That seems like the number discrepancy to me.
 
My theory is to use skinks to force the overrun and charge the krox into the flank. Gotta kill the hag to lose the witch brew
 
Pinktaco is right, for what it's worth

12 Krox (including Ancient) attacking nets you 40.16667 attacks (19*7/6 + 18).
Those attacks do 20.083 hits (40.16667 * 3/6).
Those hits do 16.7 wounds (20.083 * 5/6).
After ward saves, you have 11.16 wounds left (16.7 * 4/6).

6 stomps * 5/6 wounds * 4/6 ward = 3.33 wounds. Total is 14.49.
 
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