8th Ed. Sharing is caring. Kroxigor make me sad

[NexS1]

yes, that sounds familiar!
i have to sets of dice, but changing the dice doesn't seem to do a thing!

Be careful with your dice god blasphemy... you may get smited (worse than you have been already!)

That would be bad... Especially now that I have to fight WOC this thursday. Gonna need all the good rolls I can get. Maybe its time to build an altar for my dice. Maybe that will please the gods.

People tend to disagree with me, but I find WoC to be perfectly designed to kill both my armies (Lizards and High Elves). Nothing i can choose seems to be as cheesy as their "bread and butter" choices (except, maybe if i had a skirmisher cloud and heaps of stegs).
WoC have very little shooting, so I find that a lots of annoying skirmishers and a couple of well-placed really hard hitters can work.
My current "Xlanhuapec" theme army is generally something like
Slann (all bells and whistles, BSB Ld10, egg of quango, 3x 5+ channel, becalming, eldritch, prescence, Life)
Chakax (i know it's handicapping myself, but he's fun)
at least 1 priest w/scroll
one unit of saurus
fill remaining core with skirmishers
25 TG with jaguar banner

optionals:
depending on points and opponent, i'll either go Bastiladon or 2 units of chammos
a stegadon if points allow
and i've become accustommed to razordons/sallies, if points allow. The "stand back - you come to me" approach has been working for me of late, i just have to find the perfect time to move into charge range and use skinks to hold off the units i don't want to fight (which, in WoC, are all of them :/ )
I'm playing WoC on the weekend, so i'll see how this list goes

A Sotec themed dice tower might be in order.

You are right. The serpent god will be happy with that, yes??? Please??

 

[Qupakoco]

For me Kroxigor have always been a shock troop. Not a combat block for grinding. You use them to hit something in the side, not the front. We all know they're fast enough to move to where you need them. T4 and 4+ armor makes them pretty easy to hurt so getting a flank charge against something helps a long ways.

My advice, use them in tandem with a Saurus block. Hammer+Anvil style. Tried and true tactic that just might make that Chaos Warrior horde go down a little easier.*





*maybe

 

[NexS1]

For me Kroxigor have always been a shock troop. Not a combat block for grinding. You use them to hit something in the side, not the front. We all know they're fast enough to move to where you need them. T4 and 4+ armor makes them pretty easy to hurt so getting a flank charge against something helps a long ways.

My advice, use them in tandem with a Saurus block. Hammer+Anvil style. Tried and true tactic that just might make that Chaos Warrior horde go down a little easier.*





*maybe

Nice addendum.
One day, when i'm not in a hateful relationship with them, I may give them another go! The issue in this particular case is that they either had to charge the executioners or move in front of the temple guard to block the upcoming charge, I'd just expected the lumbering giant lizards to hold for at least one turn...

 

[MarchoftheStegs]

Comparatively an iron gut is 43 points for -1 s +1 I -1 as core ogrecharge impact hit. Without cold blooded or aquatic. I think 45 seems about right.

 

[Sleboda]

If we're gonna go down that path, I'll just remind everyone again about Ushabti. More points, less armor, can't march (CAN'T MARCH), lower M, lower S... it goes on.

Kroxigor are fine. The one thing I would change about them if I could would be to make them (and Saurus) one point higher WS.

 

[Qupakoco]

^^ That's what magic is for

 

[NexS1]

If we're gonna go down that path, I'll just remind everyone again about Ushabti. More points, less armor, can't march (CAN'T MARCH), lower M, lower S... it goes on.

Kroxigor are fine. The one thing I would change about them if I could would be to make them (and Saurus) one point higher WS.

I can get on board with this

 

[Myster2]

I played my friends wood elf list a few days ago. I was using a monster mash list.

He treewacked 5 times in the game, I made 4 initiative 1 tests, and then to top it off when I finally failed a save he rolled a 1 to wound .

 

[Screamer]

I don't think the hitting or power is the problem with Kroxigors, it's simply the survivability that's an issue.
3+ AS, 6+ ward or T5 instead of T4, would that be to much to ask for? They should be tougher and more durable than Saurus, but instead they are actually easier to kill?!?

 

[Ersh]

Kroxigor
M WS BS S T W I A Ld As
6 3 0 5(7) 4 3 1 3 7 4+


Ogre Ironguts (Ogre Charge)
M WS BS S T W I A Ld As
6 3 2 4(6) 4 3 2 3 8 5+


Comparing near the same models we can see, that stats are nearly the same, but Ogres a cheaper and have Ogre charge. (1S for 7 points? And no impact hits? No, thx).

So, IMHO Kroxigors must be about 35-40 pts , and that's all they need.

 

[Sleboda]

Comparing across books like that is almost never a good idea. You have to evaluate things in context.

I'm not saying I don't get jealous of things or refer to other units in other books, but a straight up comparison such as the one in your post leaves out so much.

 

[GCPD]

You're forgetting Cold-Blooded as well.

But if you really want to be wound up, compare them to Nurgle Ogres...

 

[Ersh]

Comparing with other units is the only way of balancing.
Any unit is not just stats and rules, but stats and rules with price in points.

Saurus warriors, cavalry and temple guards are "ok" balanced imo (just give them opportunity to have magic flags and may be marks of old ones, like it was in 6ed).

But Kroxigors are just overpriced for their stats and rules.
If our enemy have cheaper Ogres with impact hits, it's unwise (imho) to play Kroxigors vs them.

U can compare other units with nearly same stats with Kroxigors, and u will see the same picture - Krox'es are simply overpriced.

 

[Pinktaco]

Remove impact hits and they're killing each other at the same rate. Difference? Kroxies will have PF and are cold blooded. On aversge they'll be generating 1,5 more attacks with 3 kroxies in front. Personally if I were to field then it would be 8 x 2. That would be 2 attacks.

Besides that kroxies are harder to hex in terms of strength (S6 vs T4 doesn't matter) and buffing a T4 model with wyssans won't matter. On the flipside if you give then wyssans they'll benefit from it since there isn't a lot of S7+ models out there.

Besides that we have plenty of other models to deal with ogres. What are they supposed to do with massed skinks and our characters? Our kroxies might be a tad expensive, but you'll have to look at the greater picture.

Besides they just got a price reduction and strenght bump last year.. Oh.. Yeah our stomps are better than theirs

 

[Ersh]

It is very funny how people like the cold blooded rule. But.. Compare liz Ld with any other army unit , and u will see, that they almost always have 1 or 2 more Ld. That does not negate c.b. rule, but imo- liz units have low Ld to balance it. We have no unit with Ld 10.

Second - why impact hits is nice. We have very bad WS, and almost 50% of players play elfs - and that mean ASF and low chances to hit them. But impact hits don't care about WS. Kill elves before they even start a combat... That's awesome.

So... I still think that problem is not in stats, but in unit price.

 

[Sleboda]

Comparing with other units is the only way of balancing.

=> No, it's not.

If our enemy have cheaper Ogres with impact hits, it's unwise (imho) to play Kroxigors vs them.

=> Ah. Yes. I forgot. Ogres, with all their cheap, skirmishing, poisoned re-directors can really deal a lot of damage before the troops get into combat...

See my point?

almost 50% of players play elfs

=> You may want to let GW know about your market research data. I'm sure they would love to go from 14 armies to 6.

 

[NexS1]

Sleboda, let's not forget that gnoblars still exist, even if we don't see them often!

That being said, I'd happily take kroxigors against ogres (bulls or ironguts, maneaters can go to hell). We have higher Str and armour. Just gotta make sure we get the charge to prevent their impact hits

 

[MarchoftheStegs]

I just played an ogre player and two kroxis killed 7 leadbelchers. So its not cut and driedkeep in mind they lose 50% of their hits 50% of the remain ing wounds to go to 25% and then we save 33% of that 25 leading to 16.66% wounds. we hit with 50% wound with 41.66667 and no as that pretty well in our favor against ironguts with equivalent numbers its a wash where the rolls matter.


IF you get one spell off for us in either case it turns into a rout.

 

[Ersh]

Funny =)

It's sometimes hard to comment, when some1 say that black is white.

You can agree or disagree with something, but still u need an argument. Sleboda, comparing is the only way of balancing. Compare, then create. And only after that - tuning. I have my limited experience in creating game units and huge experience in tuning and watching the result. I know what i'm talking about.
About elves and statistic - just open any tournament list... check top-10 winners... Most of them are elves and chaos. Is that something new for you?

And back to the topic: every1 here agreer that Kroxi need some boost. I think that it must be points-reducing, commentators before me - that it must be some stat boost. I don't thinks so, cause GW style in lizardmen is: low WS, very low Init, high AS. And kroxies have all of this... GW will not boost liz unit out of their lizardmen vision.

 

[Pinktaco]

It is very funny how people like the cold blooded rule. But.. Compare liz Ld with any other army unit , and u will see, that they almost always have 1 or 2 more Ld. That does not negate c.b. rule, but imo- liz units have low Ld to balance it. We have no unit with Ld 10.

Second - why impact hits is nice. We have very bad WS, and almost 50% of players play elfs - and that mean ASF and low chances to hit them. But impact hits don't care about WS. Kill elves before they even start a combat... That's awesome.

So... I still think that problem is not in stats, but in unit price.

But we do. We have Ld9 on the slann who can very easily get +1 Ld. But why would we? That would grant us a 98% chance to pass without the reroll/BSB.

Ld 7 with cold-blooded have a 80% chance to pass, Ld9 without have 83%. Ironguts have LD8 giving them a 72% chance to pass. Ogres need a tyrant or the banner (one unit only) to get Ld9.

Cold blooded matters.