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AoS Seraphon nerfs

dranagal said:
From the corebook: (p 238)
"Lastly, any extra attacks, hit rolls or
wound rolls gained by the use of an
ability cannot themselves generate
extra attacks, hit rolls or wound
rolls. For example, if a hit roll of 6
or more allows you to make 1 extra
attack, this extra attack could not
generate further attacks should you
roll another 6+."
So what's the problem with rippers ?
Click to expand...

Because, as stated by the core rules themself, abilities on warscrolls take precedence over core rules.
So rippers do their infinite attacks trick.

By comparison there are many cases where the General rule would effectively stop the chain of attacks

example:

The scar Vet on Carno lets a saurus unit generate additional attacks for each 6+
The unit influenced by the scar vet ability is the one that does the attacks; that unit doesn't have any ability, so they cannot do more than one additional attack for each 6+, tnx to the general rule you've quoted.
But the rippers apply their own ability, and that one trumps the general rule.
 
For me the main issue boils down to balance the different armies. This has to be done within the actual ruleset. This is a very difficult undertaking, as it takes time and a gazillion of different games played to see unwanted results in the form of OP combinations. As gw released so many factions and model specific rules, and thus combinations, this is really challenging....
I personally think that the eotg generating summoning points could be an answer to prevent spamming units. Let it do 1d6+6 for example. Also make it a hero selection. I think this would make it an attractive part of summoning lists.
Standard bearer shouldn't stack, problem solved.
Kroak for one is difficult. He's the caster of our army, and not a cheap one too. So either reduce the wounds to 3, d3, and one (or something like that). Reduce the range to 2d6 but leave the damage the same. Or give seraphon their own lore...
Hitting units with the nerf bat generally lead to not played units...that's not what gw wants. As @pendrake said, they're interested to keep us spending money on minis. The new summoning mechanics do prove this.

Tl,dr: some adjustments have to be done, without ruining the army, that's the delicate part.
 
Joshua Horchler said:
By no means is it perfect. AoS is a super complex game, i would rather them use a rule that affects all the armies equally. A game like AoS or 40k will never be completely balanced, so I prefer when they at least make the rules universal and equal.

Rule of 1 prevents people in AoS from casting the same spell and stacking bonuses. This use to be used in 40k all the time.
Click to expand...
We don't need the rule of 1 to prevent stacking bonusses. The fact that you can't throw say mystic shield on the same target multiple times is sensible in itself, all you do is refresh the buff. I can't think of a single game I've ever played where it works that way and casting a buff on a target already affected by said buff gave it double the bonusses.

As for casting the same spell; Not being able to cast the any spell twice, regardless of the resources I have available is terrible design. An occasional super special uber-powerfull spell could have such a limit. But in general this shouldn't be the case. And this also shouldn't be terribly difficult to balance.
 
GW has released his latest FAQ, and Seraphon took a big hit, as was expected.

Basically:
-Celestial Deliverance is now casting 8, 9, 10,
10" range and does mortal wounds on a 2+, D3 to regular units and a straight 3 to daemons.

-Kroak's command ability used only once and now 4+ means an extra command point.

-Kroak ''has'' 7 wounds for rules purposes

-Ripper's voracious beak attack now do D3 hits when succesful.

-EotG's summoning cannot move in the following movement phase.

-Saurus Astrolith Bearers do not stack anymore and the range on casting buff isn't global anymore.

As a side note we got a rule modification for the skink starpriest, now on a 2+ you get an extra command point but on a 1 give it to your opponent, quite interesting.

EDIT: here is the link https://www.warhammer-community.com...paign=AoSFAQsJuly23&utm_content=AoSFAQsJuly23
Screenshot_20180723-093717_Drive.jpg
 
Last edited:
ok, lets see:
-Skink Starseer got change, i dont know why
- Rippers got nerfed, i understand why ;)
- EotG got nerfed, i would say balanced
- Kroak got a HUGE nerf, i think to much.

I think the Rippers got a little bit to much, since they still cost more points then Terradons.
 
It's the same thing every time for seraphon nerf nerf nerf nerf. When are they ever going to give us a break. Allot of the other armies got huge buffs or just a little balancing. Naturally the newer released armies got buffed again to make them even more op.
This just really peeves me off
 
John1974 said:
It's the same thing every time for seraphon nerf nerf nerf nerf. When are they ever going to give us a break. Allot of the other armies got huge buffs or just a little balancing. Naturally the newer released armies got buffed again to make them even more op.
This just really peeves me off
Click to expand...
That's a bit unfair. The summoning and the EotG change from AoS1 to AoS2 did make us stronger, and before that: the GHB2018 made us stronger. Endless spells make Seraphon stronger as well. We are an army that has consistently been in the top10, even the top5 of tournaments for at least a year.

We don't have it too bad. Granted, they hit us with the nerf bat a bit too much maybe, especially Kroak, but it is not too severe IMO.
 
We knew it would happen, I played against my son yesterday and just to see how powerful the summoning was I played,

Kroak, AB, EotG and a Slann that's all I put on the table, summoned a BWV

He had Maggotkin, GuO, Herald, 6 Plague drones, 30 Plague bearers, Sloppity, Slimux.

After 3 turns I had an extra 20 Skinks, 3 Rippers a Basilidon and he only had the GuO left on the table, I think I lost 7 skinks and wiped the Maggots
 
I hate that they just made kroak useless. We massively lack mortal wounds without kroak.
 
With that nerf on kroak i think it should cost less points :(
 
They didn't make him useless. Just compare him to others, he is still one of the most powerful wizards in the game.
 
I'm fine with all of these. The only one I wish they didn't change was Kroak's command ability. I have not found command points to be a particularly scarce resource in my games so getting that many more is kind of whatever. I do not run a saurus heavy army though so my available command abilities are limited.

I still think Kroak is pretty viable. On a balewind and with an astrolith it still has a 24" range which is great. Or use the portals and it is an 18" range from wherever you drop the portal. So that is still great. Maybe his points should come down some but I can see arguments either way.

I am actually excited about the ripper change, I have been playing with only generating 1 extra attack so I think d3 could be better, need to check the math on it.

EotG makes so much sense, no complaints there.

I just played a small tournament yesterday (18 players) and tied for 1st place. 3 major wins and only one was particularly close. With the new summoning and the double teleport our board control is insane.
 
I think these are great changes, nothing we didn't see coming. We are still one of the most powerful armies out there, it's just no longer autopick Kroak, Astros, Rippers and Engines and win without any sort of challenge.

Our core power is still perfectly intact, we still have cheap amazing battalions, solid unit options and top-tier special rules and spellcasting.
 
I approve of these changes, the nerfs are not that bad and there is even some extra boons if you think about it like the Ripper changes.
 
Nefertem said:
For me the main issue boils down to balance the different armies. This has to be done within the actual ruleset. This is a very difficult undertaking, as it takes time and a gazillion of different games played to see unwanted results in the form of OP combinations. As gw released so many factions and model specific rules, and thus combinations, this is really challenging....
I personally think that the eotg generating summoning points could be an answer to prevent spamming units. Let it do 1d6+6 for example. Also make it a hero selection. I think this would make it an attractive part of summoning lists.
Standard bearer shouldn't stack, problem solved.
Kroak for one is difficult. He's the caster of our army, and not a cheap one too. So either reduce the wounds to 3, d3, and one (or something like that). Reduce the range to 2d6 but leave the damage the same. Or give seraphon their own lore...
Hitting units with the nerf bat generally lead to not played units...that's not what gw wants. As @pendrake said, they're interested to keep us spending money on minis. The new summoning mechanics do prove this.

Tl,dr: some adjustments have to be done, without ruining the army, that's the delicate part.
Click to expand...
EotG is already a hero choice.
 
Vexcor said:
ok, lets see:
-Skink Starseer got change, i dont know why
- Rippers got nerfed, i understand why ;)
- EotG got nerfed, i would say balanced
- Kroak got a HUGE nerf, i think to much.

I think the Rippers got a little bit to much, since they still cost more points then Terradons.
Click to expand...
I assume they're removing access to non-specific re-rolls to prevent increasing the likelihood of summoning with an engine of the gods from getting too high, and to make getting Kroak's spells off less reliable.

I think the nerfs to Kroak were fair- his spells are still plenty strong. Most spells similar to deliverance are on models that are much easier to kill and only hit targets on a 4+ or do only a single mortal wound to each target with a much shorter range with less ways to increase it. We were seeing ridiculous lists with double astrolith + Kroak + 2-3 engines, and they were extremely competitive. Kroaknado isn't going away from this; it's just losing some of its power.

The engine summoning is probably still too strong, imo. Getting "free" rippers that can place blot toads on round 1 is still extremely powerful, as it still puts a massive threat on the table that your opponent needs to deal with as soon as possible. They just don't get to fly into combat immediately anymore.

The change to rippers leaves them a bit more effective than they would be bringing back the rule of 1 to their special rule, as you get bonus hits instead of attacks. Considering rippers/shadowstrike were being taken in competitive mixed order lists under the 2017 GHB rules and didn't see points changes, they'll still be plenty strong.
 
Aginor said:
We don't have it too bad. Granted, they hit us with the nerf bat a bit too much maybe, especially Kroak, but it is not too severe IMO.
Click to expand...
Add good as a couple of benefits we're did get they are nothing compared to some of the others got. And reading through the other armies none got hit with nerfs as bad as ours. Especially the summoned units from eotg no longer able to move. Cry cry lol. That was fun


On a unit of 3 rippers most games i was playing i was getting between 22-34 attacks off with the blot toad frenzy, now even if all 9 attacks hit, they could still only get 9 attacks if you roll really badly but the average would round up to about 18. Still nothing like the undead that can generate 50-60 attacks buffed by the necromancer or is it the white king.
At least now the blot toads can be set up if you have rippers in reserve now. Guess that is a boon..
And with kroak.. as powerful as he still might be considering the costs of other armies named heroes and their abilities. He is not worth 450pts. But hes integral with most competative lists .
 
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