8th Ed. Self-comp

[mbh7271]

So I'm interested in keeping friends and playing lizardmen at the same time. What are some things I should keep in mind when making a list?


Cupped hands seems horrific

I'm guessing salamanders should be limited as well


What else should I be careful with?

 

[Scalenex]

I also want to not annoy friends and acquaintances. I only limit myself from one thing: Becalming Cognition, this basically makes it impossible for your opponent to get higher level spells or IF.

In Storm of Magic games, I figured I should probably steer clear of Cube of Darkness in friendly games. In a normal game it's not too bad to have a 50% to remove 5 or 6 power dice from any enemy but in Storm of Magic, it's possible to remove 15 or 16 dice with a 40 point item.

I did an army swap with a friend once where I played his Dwarfs and he played my Lizardmen. He played an army entirely made up of Skink Skirmishers, Skink Chiefs, and Chameleon Skinks at 2750 points. He pretty much ran away from every charge while shooting me at every opportunity. He won but it was a very slow moving low scoring game and unsatisfying to both of us. I would avoid an All Skirmisher list unless the game size is <1500. Even then you should have some Warbeasts, Terradons, and the like for variety.

I often try to take one unorthodox unit choice power list. Kroxigor sans Skinks, Razordon, or a seldom used Lore. Once I get tired of Razordon and Kroxigors, I plan to give Swarms a second look. That can show you aren't only concerned with an optimal build without actually removing anything from your choices.

It's also important to gage how your frequent opponents play. If I'm expecting to play a local player who makes very deadly optimized lists I will make more competitive choices than if I'm playing someone with the philosophy who is ore concerned with having fun than winning.

 

[Lord Tsunami]

i never use more than two salamanders. thats the worst cheese i guess. slann might need to be combed too if you feel generous, but just remind ppl that you COULD have brought six salamanders but chose not to right after you roast a precious unit with only two of them, and you will be fine

 

[thomasthefinch]

I'm going to avoid maxing out optimal choices, and I think that's it. I'm going to try and avoid spamming anything. I'm not going to avoid becalming cognition though. I think when you pay 600 points for a wizard, it should be the best in the game. Also it voids their mega spells, which I'm fine with, because I don't really use the mega spells myself, aside from a couple.

Aside from the obvious, don't spam skirmishers and sallys, I do make an active decision on whether my list would be too miserable to play against.

 

[mbh7271]

all great ideas

thanks

 

[Qupakoco]

Aside from the obvious, don't spam skirmishers and sallys, I do make an active decision on whether my list would be too miserable to play against.

Yeah, that's a good point. I once took 2 units of Skirmishers, 2 Sallies, a SV-Cowboy, and a block of Saurus in a 800 pt game against my buddies new Skaven army. It was not a very good experience for his first time playing Skaven.

 

[Rhodium]

Aside from the obvious, don't spam skirmishers and sallys, I do make an active decision on whether my list would be too miserable to play against.

Yeah, that's a good point. I once took 2 units of Skirmishers, 2 Sallies, a SV-Cowboy, and a block of Saurus in a 800 pt game against my buddies new Skaven army. It was not a very good experience for his first time playing Skaven.

Get away! Skaven are the most bent army in the game! Even at 800 they can bring utter filth! I say no self comp should ever be considered when facing the filthy rat men, they deserve all they get

 

[mbh7271]

lizards are better or at least equal to skaven

both armies are rough

 

[Rhodium]

lizards are better or at least equal to skaven

both armies are rough

Care to justify your claim?

General opinion is that Skaven is the best army currently available,

If you look at any debate over "tiers" Skaven is always firmly in the top tier, lizardmen are top tier in some and middle tier in others, kind of on the cusp of top tier,

Looking at lizardmen: true filth are the slanns (over powered and cheap) cupped hands, cowboy scar vets (but they aren't even that bad) and salamanders

Look at Skaven:
Screaming bell, dreaded 13th spell, slaves (2 pt exploding ld10 infantry), HPA, WLC, Warpstone tokens, doom rocket, brass orb are all filthy and they have lots of other choices that aren't as filthy but are still great

That's why Skaven are often Have a lot of comp compared to everyone else

 

[mbh7271]

Relax pal. I posted my opinion after you posted yours (without any reasons).



There are more than a few tournament players out there that feel that Lizards are the top army with skaven in second place. Please list the armies that you think are ahead of lizards if you would place them in the middle tier. I honestly can't justify placing the lizards any where near the middle.


It's really impossible to accurately decide this due to the different meta that everyone faces. Skaven may be number one in your area but something else could be the top in my area.

Screaming bell, dreaded 13th spell, slaves (2 pt exploding ld10 infantry), HPA, WLC, Warpstone tokens, doom rocket, brass orb are all filthy and they have lots of other choices that aren't as filthy but are still great

Doom Rocket and slaves are broken, I totally agree.

13th is bad but it is tough to pull off and only targets infantry.

Brass Orb is great but not game breaking in my opinion.

HPA is way too cheap but it can be dealt with.

WLC is a too few points but not that bad. There are many games where it does nothing due to the randomness of it's rules. I would much rather have a dwarf cannon with a few runes on it.

Warpstone tokens are fine. I have never heard these mentioned as broken.

Screaming Bell is a great option for a Grey Seer but cannons are a big issue. I have had my Seer shot off the Bell more than once in the first couple turns of a game.





Skaven are a very powerful army, no doubt, but I'm not convinced that they are clearly number one.

 

[strewart]

I'm going to avoid maxing out optimal choices, and I think that's it. I'm going to try and avoid spamming anything. I'm not going to avoid becalming cognition though. I think when you pay 600 points for a wizard, it should be the best in the game. Also it voids their mega spells, which I'm fine with, because I don't really use the mega spells myself, aside from a couple.

That knid of beastly Slann is one of the main things considered overpowered in a LM army, if you care about comping yourself and making a fair fight you should definitely not max out a Slann... Take a weaker Slann or even leave the toad at home. LM without Slann can be very vulnerable to magic thus they have a large glaring weakness, but still can perform well without being overpowered.

I'd definitely say Skaven are more powerful than LM. With LM, it is pretty easy to build a fair and friendly list. With Skaven, you really have to work hard to make a list that isn't powerful and even then it will usually have one or two quite powerful aspects. The furnace is also pretty crazy in a large unit of plague monks; there isn't much in the game that can take it down.

 

[mbh7271]

it's dead easy to build a weak skaven list


No seer

Warlord on bone breaker

Horde of rat ogres

limit slave units and size

night runners


there you go, pure garbage



I don't even think the furnace is that bad. It has zero protection from war machines. The fact that monks are frenzied can also be exploited in big ways.

When I rate skaven as overpowered the furnace has nothing to do with it.