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8th Ed. Scar Vet on CO w/ Saurus Warriors?

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syypher

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Hi guys. Been looking at a lot of the lists here and other sites for Lizzies and a lot of people take Vets on Cold Ones...like 2-3 of them even...I was planning on taking one but started getting more curious about them after seeing this trend.

Do you guys take multiple scar vets on Cold Ones? Why?
Can a Vet on a CO join a unit of Saurus Warriors? If so is it just the Vet in the block with the rest of the Saurus Warriors around it? Why would you do this? Just for the +2 AS or what?

Can any more experienced Liz generals help me find the answers to my questions. Thanks!
 
Usually it is done for the extra attack and+2 armor save yes. Joining a block of saurus warriors will count as having 2 rank and file models, possibly boosting the rank. The only thing that sucks is they don't get look out sir rolls. For a few points it is worth the upgrade.
 
Hi there!
Yes a Scar-Vet can join a unit of saurii, with them surrounding him. This is because the base size is the double as a regular saurus. If the model had an 20mm baze with, he would have to stay on one of the sides.


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Reason for him to be put in a unit of sauriis, would be:

#The unit causes fear, and are immune to fear
#The unit becomes subject to stupidity (no problem with a coldblooded ld 8, a bsb is even better)
- Stupidity makes the unit immune to psychology, we need no panic test, terror test or fear test.
# a coldone is +2 armoursave to your scar vet, so he can invest them in magic wep or banner instead.
# a Coldone as stated above, allowes for a "bonus" saurus according to count ranks.

On the bad side, we have to take the stupiditytest each turn, and the scarvet is not allowed to get an "look-out-sir" roll


I have tried to build a "deathstar" saurus unit, and it worked very fine for me:

32 saurus warriors including full command w. hw/s

1 scar vet (BSB) w. Halberd, LA, venom of firefly frog (still testing if i should go w. magic banner instead)

1 scar vet w. Cold one, Halberd, LA, Crown of command.

going 7x5

The unit is actually unbreakable:

Cold blooded leadership 8 with reroll (tried 1+ ld banner here)
Immune to psychology, ignoring any panic and terror/fear test
Stubborn, so the wont break if lost in combat
 
Wow O_O thanks you guys!

Shanoor that is exactly what I was looking for! Thanks for clarifying and your time to write all that stuff for me!
 
The unit doesn't become immune to fear. Only the Scar Veteran becomes immune. Read the Fear rules closely.
 
Ahh yearh!.. What a brainfart from my side :)
The majority of the unit has to be immune to psych in order get it.

Well it does not make that much of a difference with stubborn rerollable leadership! especially not with a ld of 9 (+1 from wardrums, banner or slann general)
 
But is one model in a unit has stupidity the whole unit has stupidity which makes the unit ITP .
 
forlustria said:
But is one model in a unit has stupidity the whole unit has stupidity which makes the unit ITP .
Click to expand...

No. The unit follows the rules for Stupidity because he "drags" them. They don't get stupid themselves...

It's the same thing with Frenzy. If one character in a unit have Frenzy and the unit doesn't they have to test for Frenzy if they must charge or not but all of them will not get extra attacks because the character is mad.
 
Scarr said:
forlustria said:
But is one model in a unit has stupidity the whole unit has stupidity which makes the unit ITP .
Click to expand...

No. The unit follows the rules for Stupidity because he "drags" them. They don't get stupid themselves...

It's the same thing with Frenzy. If one character in a unit have Frenzy and the unit doesn't they have to test for Frenzy if they must charge or not but all of them will not get extra attacks because the character is mad.
Click to expand...

RAW is that with a character on a cold one the unit does not get cause fear nor does it get immunity to fear any more, but it does get immunity to psychology due to the way that GW worded the ITP and stupidity rules in different ways.

A unit is ITP if the majority of models are ITP.
The whole unit is subject to stupidity if at least one model has the stupidity rule.

These are simple enough but it gets weird when you look at how they link: models gain ITP from being subject to stupidity not from having the stupidity rule, all models in a unit with a model with the stupidity rule are subject to stupidity, so all models are also ITP and so unit is ITP.

GW may have intended stupidity/ITP to work like frenzy but they wrote it that all of a unit is stupid and so all of that unit is ITP.
 
BEEGfrog said:
RAW is that with a character on a cold one the unit does not get cause fear nor does it get immunity to fear any more, but it does get immunity to psychology due to the way that GW worded the ITP and stupidity rules in different ways.

A unit is ITP if the majority of models are ITP.
The whole unit is subject to stupidity if at least one model has the stupidity rule.

These are simple enough but it gets weird when you look at how they link: models gain ITP from being subject to stupidity not from having the stupidity rule, all models in a unit with a model with the stupidity rule are subject to stupidity, so all models are also ITP and so unit is ITP.

GW may have intended stupidity/ITP to work like frenzy but they wrote it that all of a unit is stupid and so all of that unit is ITP.
Click to expand...

Just to clear things up a little.

Quoted from the rulebook:
Stupidity: "Provided that they are not in close combat, a unit containing one or more models with the stupidity special rule must try to overcome stupidity at the start of its turn by taking a leadership test"

Nowhere in that scentence does it state that the whole unit gets the stupidity special rule, only the cold one rider has it but as a consequense of putting him in the unit they all have to test for stupidity. This is in no way the same thing as them getting the rule and so they are still not immune to psychology and have to take panic tests like a normal unit.

Fear: "At the start of the close combat round, a unit that is in base contact with one or more enemy models that cause fear must take a leadership test, before any blows are struck"

This indicates that the unit will cause fear as long as the cold one is in base contact with the unit they are fighting.

"Models that cause fear are themselves immune to fear and are not affected by any of this rule´s effects (even if there unit fails the test for example.) This includes characters riding fear-causing mounts, who will count as causing fear themselves."

So yes, he will not transfer the immunity to fear unto his own unit, only he himself will be immune
 
As your quote so would so aptly describe if you hadn't missed out the crucial word "its" before "stupidity", a unit has to test to overcome stupidity, therefore the unit is the thing subject to stupidity, therefore the unit has ITP.

This reading is dependent on the sentence following correct grammar. This is a sentence that should be amended to at least replace "its" with either "the model's" or "the unit's" or be completely rewritten so that its intended meaning is clear.

One thing is clear from the quote, it is the unit that tests for stupidity not the model. If the unit is testing, it is the thing subject the rule (even though it is one of its parts that has the rule). You gain ITP if you are subject to the rule. Models posess the rule but make their units subject to it.

Both the wording of the quote (when it is quoted correctly) and the mechanics of the rule have the unit as the thing subject to stupidity. Whether this is RAI, it is certainly RAW.
 
Landjorden said:
Fear: "At the start of the close combat round, a unit that is in base contact with one or more enemy models that cause fear must take a leadership test, before any blows are struck"

This indicates that the unit will cause fear as long as the cold one is in base contact with the unit they are fighting.
Click to expand...

So why would you give a Slann the "Terror dicipline" if it only works in base to base contact? Would be pointless to put him in a unit of TG.

pg 77 WHRB
…Models that are subject to stupidity are also immune to psychology…
…a unit that contains one or more models with the stupidity special rule must try to overcome its stupidity…
 
And I thought I had got the fear rules sorted out in my mind after the change to 8th...
 
Something else I just learned:

Under Terror pg 78 WHRB.

If a unit it made up entirely of fear causing creatures they do not test for fear OR terror. So a unit of KROX or Cold One Cav. does not have to test vs. say a Terrorgeist. I always thought you tested vs. Terror unless you casused Terror.

Off subject but cool to know.

Back on Subject -

Can a Scar Vet on a Cold One in a unit of Saurus be targeted with shooting and how do Stomps work against that unit?
 
Shaynoor said:
Hi there!

I have tried to build a "deathstar" saurus unit, and it worked very fine for me:

32 saurus warriors including full command w. hw/s

1 scar vet (BSB) w. Halberd, LA, venom of firefly frog (still testing if i should go w. magic banner instead)

1 scar vet w. Cold one, Halberd, LA, Crown of command.

going 7x5

The unit is actually unbreakable:

Cold blooded leadership 8 with reroll (tried 1+ ld banner here)
Immune to psychology, ignoring any panic and terror/fear test
Stubborn, so the wont break if lost in combat
Click to expand...

But highly vulnerable to magic, and a lot of eggs (points) in one basket, no? Or have your opponents not figured that out yet? Or maybe you rely on a Slann to dispel everything? Just curious.
 
Used to have both vets on foot and the unit down to 28 saurii.

Yes it's many eggs in one basket, but so is a slann in a TG unit. Currently I am still testing if I should go with two units of 24 saurii w. Scar Vet in each or just keep both in one.
Since My slann is shadow, I always find him to be within 24" of enemy mages (becalming) and all my priests (dispel + iceshard) and chaff units usually debuff or engage warmachines. As Syypher said, units of 24 are usually more vunerable, as they can't afford to loose that many Saurii. And as long as I only have one strong unit, it's also easier for me to focus the Augment/hexes around them.

Yes there a pro/cons for either choice

2x24:
+ more troops for flanking or hammering also more bodies
+ enemy has to divide his ranged attacks
+ less egg in one basket

- they either get reroll or stubborn, only one, which could potentially see my saurii units flee more often
- augments and hexes would only help one of the units
- Bodies matter, the fewer the got, the weaker they get (counting combat resolution/attacks)


1x35/1x40 (body counts):
+ Tough unit, stubborn rerollable coldbloded ld. Chances to fail are few.
+ Easier to choose whom to face in combat, leaving rest of his CC units ineffective
+ Does not have to rely on steadfast or anything else counting towards combat resolution, also a few casualties wont hurt.
+ easier for Slann to get effective buffs around (as I can affors to focus more spells on one combat)
+ more leftover points for other units.

- Obviously many point in 1 basket, and a easy pick for any initiative based attack. Same goes for shooting and magic.
- Less manouvreble, unless I use swift reform

So.. Still in the progress of testing :)
 
20 TG incl. full command will see around 350pt

32 saurii incl. full command costs around 380pt

Then you put a Slann into your TG bunker, making it a 700-900pt basket? (depending on the slann gear)

OR you put both Scar Vets in the Saurii unit, making it just around 650-700 point and you still got a flexible Slann

Two big threat rather than one. I even got an ancient steg, now my enemy has to choose which one of the three he want's to attack :)
 
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