8th Ed. Saurus in the new book

[Megad00mer]

I'm going to be starting a Lizardmen army now that the 8th ed. book is out. I have a ton of models ready for assembly from years back. (friends were going to get into WFB but it just never happened).

I dig Saurus Warriors but I have a few questions regarding them.

1) How big should a unit of Saurus typically be? I was thinking 15 or 20 models. 5 wide. How many units?

2) The age old question. Spears or HW? With spears being free now, plus PF, it seems like spears are now a pretty viable option (though I'm a newb and could be totally wrong) or would it still be better to keep them with HWs for the Parry save?

Disclaimer: I eventually plan on getting an Ancient Steg with an EotG, so maybe spears are the no brainer?

3) Are Saurus good units to put a hero into like an Old Blood on foot, or are heroes better off in different units?

4) Are Saurus even worth using? I keep hearing people say to just load up on Skink Skirmishers but I really like the idea of most of my core being made up of...ya know...WARRIORS.

Thanks in advance.

 

[The Hunted]

First off: welcome! Hope you enjoy your stay at the Lustria-Online Inn

As for your questions:

1. 15-20 is a very small unit. After some casualties by either shooting or combat, the unit will struggle to live. The 'normal' unit sizes start at 20+. 6 wide, 4 deep for 24, for instance. Or just a nice block of 25. Whatever you prefer.

2. I like a unit with each of them. But generally, I really like spears. With EotG handing out 6+ ward saves, why not!

3. A hero on foot is ok. A mounted hero has far greater range to threaten your enemy. Putting him on a cold one and in a unit of saurus is a valid tactic. Putting him in an escort unit of Saurus Cavalry is also solid. Mounted heroes can do more, and the enemy can't evade them.

4. YES. They are solid, strong infantry that will hold your line. You also need the skirmishers to redirect your opponent to keep the real nasty stuff away (at least for that critical turn) from your saurus. In a heavy support list (lots of skinks), which I personally prefer; I run a 1:1 basis. 1 unit of saurus->1 unit of skinks.
But even 2 units of skinks will greatly help!

Once again, welcome to the forum! You'll find lots of discussions about units and rules at the moment, as we have just received our new army book. Which I'm sure you'll know
Read, watch, discuss, enjoy!

The Hunted

 

[n810]

I'm going to be starting a Lizardmen army now that the 8th ed. book is out. I have a ton of models ready for assembly from years back. (friends were going to get into WFB but it just never happened).

I dig Saurus Warriors but I have a few questions regarding them.

1) How big should a unit of Saurus typically be? I was thinking 15 or 20 models. 5 wide. How many units?
- MINIMUM OF 20

2) The age old question. Spears or HW? With spears being free now, plus PF, it seems like spears are now a pretty viable option (though I'm a newb and could be totally wrong) or would it still be better to keep them with HWs for the Parry save?
-EITHER IS GOOD ALSO SPEARS ARE A FREE UPGRADE NOW

Disclaimer: I eventually plan on getting an Ancient Steg with an EotG, so maybe spears are the no brainer?

3) Are Saurus good units to put a hero into like an Old Blood on foot, or are heroes better off in different units?
-ALSO EITHER IS GOOD, NOT A LOT OF OBVIUS CHOICES IN THE NEW BOOK

4) Are Saurus even worth using? I keep hearing people say to just load up on Skink Skirmishers but I really like the idea of most of my core being made up of...ya know...WARRIORS.
-AGAIN EITHER IS GOOD BUT THEY REQUIRE DIFFERENT ARMY BUILDS TO SUPPORT THEM

Thanks in advance.

Other thoughts,
I expect to see a lot more variety out of this book then previous books.

 

[Slanputin]

I'm going to rock the boat here and say I've never had a Saurus block of more than 15; I was somewhat surprised to see people use more than 20! (A tactic I still need to use).
This has probably developed against fighting multiple, small elite units leading me to create a greater 'surface' are through smaller units myself. Whilst Saurus aren't particularly maneuverable, it does mean you can weave your units from enemy to enemy: meshing your various Saurus units together over a unit to smash them, before parting to join/make a fray somewhere else.
However, I'd go for the conventional approach as stated above: my approach is probably very specific to the context.

 

[GCPD]

With limited variety in Core, you're very much better off going big or going home with Saurus. By which I mean 30+. This makes it easier to buff (less targets), protect (fewer flanks to watch), and manage (fewer Skinks needed to restrain pursuit).

As you're going for such big numbers, you really might as well grab Spears for free. This really opens up some flexibility for them. In 30 or less, you don't gain any attacks in horde formation. Over 30 and they start adding up. But they can also reform to ranks of 8, 6 or 5 depending on the situation, and with the Spears will maintain a pretty consistent damage output.

If and when Predatory Fighter is allowed on supporting attacks, they should do really well.

Right now, I'm shooting for 36 with Full Command. This is an odd number, but with 36 you can get two units of 10 Skink Skirmishers and 12 Skink Cohorts for 1 point over your minimum Core allowance at 2,500.

 

[The Hunted]

I'm going to rock the boat here and say I've never had a Saurus block of more than 15; I was somewhat surprised to see people use more than 20! (A tactic I still need to use).
This has probably developed against fighting multiple, small elite units leading me to create a greater 'surface' are through smaller units myself. Whilst Saurus aren't particularly maneuverable, it does mean you can weave your units from enemy to enemy: meshing your various Saurus units together over a unit to smash them, before parting to join/make a fray somewhere else.
However, I'd go for the conventional approach as stated above: my approach is probably very specific to the context.

Interesting setup. I would love to see your movement phase, to manage all your enemies charges. Because if they get hit, they pretty much crumble. Do you still use the infamous 12-16 Saurus with spears? Back in 7th the 12 with spears was a nice little unit. I'm having trouble seeing 15ish saurus work in 8th though.
Still, each to his own

With limited variety in Core, you're very much better off going big or going home with Saurus. By which I mean 30+. This makes it easier to buff (less targets), protect (fewer flanks to watch), and manage (fewer Skinks needed to restrain pursuit).

As you're going for such big numbers, you really might as well grab Spears for free. This really opens up some flexibility for them. In 30 or less, you don't gain any attacks in horde formation. Over 30 and they start adding up. But they can also reform to ranks of 8, 6 or 5 depending on the situation, and with the Spears will maintain a pretty consistent damage output.

If and when Predatory Fighter is allowed on supporting attacks, they should do really well.

Right now, I'm shooting for 36 with Full Command. This is an odd number, but with 36 you can get two units of 10 Skink Skirmishers and 12 Skink Cohorts for 1 point over your minimum Core allowance at 2,500.

30+ doesn't feel right to me. I understand the raw power in a horde of Saurus, but expensive hordes (such as the saurus) are prone to the anti-horde spells. And every army packs an anti-horde spell (dwellers, pit, purple sun, high magic one...)

I prefer 24-28. With 28 just being extra flesh for the inevitable casualties.



And there you go; 3 different opinions on the Saurus. 3 Different setups/uses of the saurus. All valid. All usefull.
Pick the one that suits you and your playstyle the most.
Evidently, Slanputin likes to go MSU. And GCPD goes for the big horde. I am an inbetweener..

Funny how this discussion worked out . +1 for diversity in the same unit!

The Hunted

 

[Slanputin]

I'm going to rock the boat here and say I've never had a Saurus block of more than 15; I was somewhat surprised to see people use more than 20! (A tactic I still need to use).
This has probably developed against fighting multiple, small elite units leading me to create a greater 'surface' are through smaller units myself. Whilst Saurus aren't particularly maneuverable, it does mean you can weave your units from enemy to enemy: meshing your various Saurus units together over a unit to smash them, before parting to join/make a fray somewhere else.
However, I'd go for the conventional approach as stated above: my approach is probably very specific to the context.

Interesting setup. I would love to see your movement phase, to manage all your enemies charges. Because if they get hit, they pretty much crumble. Do you still use the infamous 12-16 Saurus with spears? Back in 7th the 12 with spears was a nice little unit. I'm having trouble seeing 15ish saurus work in 8th though.
Still, each to his own

And there you go; 3 different opinions on the Saurus. 3 Different setups/uses of the saurus. All valid. All usefull.
Pick the one that suits you and your playstyle the most.
Evidently, Slanputin likes to go MSU. And GCPD goes for the big horde. I am an inbetweener..

Funny how this discussion worked out . +1 for diversity in the same unit!

The Hunted

My movement phase isn't so fluid as I may have given across, but it's mainly about pairing up the right units and preparing yourself with buffs. It's very much ball-in-the-air, so probably not the most strategicly brilliant play style, however it works well enough in context. And yes......12-16 Saurus is what I tend to do I just need to make sure they're sufficiently supported: I find huge units tend to flail a lot mroe during games with my most frequent opponent.

I didn't even think myself as MSU until I joined this forum, thanks for giving me size issues guys!

 

[GCPD]

I'm going to rock the boat here and say I've never had a Saurus block of more than 15; I was somewhat surprised to see people use more than 20! (A tactic I still need to use).
This has probably developed against fighting multiple, small elite units leading me to create a greater 'surface' are through smaller units myself. Whilst Saurus aren't particularly maneuverable, it does mean you can weave your units from enemy to enemy: meshing your various Saurus units together over a unit to smash them, before parting to join/make a fray somewhere else.
However, I'd go for the conventional approach as stated above: my approach is probably very specific to the context.

Interesting setup. I would love to see your movement phase, to manage all your enemies charges. Because if they get hit, they pretty much crumble. Do you still use the infamous 12-16 Saurus with spears? Back in 7th the 12 with spears was a nice little unit. I'm having trouble seeing 15ish saurus work in 8th though.
Still, each to his own

And there you go; 3 different opinions on the Saurus. 3 Different setups/uses of the saurus. All valid. All usefull.
Pick the one that suits you and your playstyle the most.
Evidently, Slanputin likes to go MSU. And GCPD goes for the big horde. I am an inbetweener..

Funny how this discussion worked out . +1 for diversity in the same unit!

The Hunted

My movement phase isn't so fluid as I may have given across, but it's mainly about pairing up the right units and preparing yourself with buffs. It's very much ball-in-the-air, so probably not the most strategicly brilliant play style, however it works well enough in context. And yes......12-16 Saurus is what I tend to do I just need to make sure they're sufficiently supported: I find huge units tend to flail a lot mroe during games with my most frequent opponent.

I didn't even think myself as MSU until I joined this forum, thanks for giving me size issues guys!

That's still interesting. I hadn't ever considered Saurus for MSU due to their initiative. Still, do you have any battle reports Slanputin? I'd really like to see how it went.

 

[Slanputin]

My movement phase isn't so fluid as I may have given across, but it's mainly about pairing up the right units and preparing yourself with buffs. It's very much ball-in-the-air, so probably not the most strategicly brilliant play style, however it works well enough in context. And yes......12-16 Saurus is what I tend to do I just need to make sure they're sufficiently supported: I find huge units tend to flail a lot mroe during games with my most frequent opponent.

I didn't even think myself as MSU until I joined this forum, thanks for giving me size issues guys!

That's still interesting. I hadn't ever considered Saurus for MSU due to their initiative. Still, do you have any battle reports Slanputin? I'd really like to see how it went.

My last few battles have been Sieges, and I can't remember anything beyond them. But the next time I do it in battle I shall! I should be having one soon actually, but I'm unsure of the tactics I'm using yet.

 

[eppe]

I prefer HW over spears because of the save. I take around 30 Saurus and fill the rest of my core out with Skirmishers.

 

[Megad00mer]

This has all been a huge help. Thanks to everyone.

I think I decided to go with Spears in units of 24 to start. Our early games are going to be on the smallish side anyway.

 

[GCPD]

Its a good number to start with, but I'd really recommend getting the extra points for the 25th Saurus. 25 is a lot more flexible; allowing you to go 5x6 for the extra rank to tank, or switch to 6x4 for damage output (even if it leaves one guy hanging off the end!).

I used to run 24 6x4 exclusively, but since adding the 25th guy I've found it really works in the Saurus' favour to meet whatever they face on the field.

 

[Kcibrihp-Esurc]

Really It is just how you use them, what feels right to you? Me? I usually have no core saurus with a unit of 26 Temple Guard if I'm running a Slann but it's how you use it with the rest of your Army what else are you planning on taking?

 

[cashzombie]

Many people say that saurus are not as good as they seem to, that's kinda right, but comes more in the form of a bad use. You have to consider some aspects if you want to take saurus for your core:

- Saurus come with decent stats, but they're not chaos warriors os white lions, but can become great anyway with the proper magical aid (Hand of Glory and Wyssan's are the more commons, but any heavens or life buff will be welcome on them). So don't be afraid of giving them magical support.

- Saurus are slow, this means that they will hit after many enemies, so don't let the speed ruin your day, bring enough saurus in order to stay, if 1 survives, the enemy don't get a single victory point for them so big blocks are going to be better than small ones (I usually run a 35 saurus unit, and I've never lost them all)

- Saurus are saurus, they're not Temple Guards. Remember this if you don't want your unit to be blocked forever against a 1+ AS unit, with S4 you're really good at grinding infantry, not cavalry. Without a single buff, you'll hit most enemy's infantry with 4+, wound with 3/4+ and their saves won't be so great (5/6+), so you can bring enough death to make them useful (like always, don't forget magic if you can)

Probably the saurus are the unit in the book that looks better after every buff, support them to the victory.

 

[Kcibrihp-Esurc]

Many people say that saurus are not as good as they seem to, that's kinda right, but comes more in the form of a bad use. You have to consider some aspects if you want to take saurus for your core:

- Saurus come with decent stats, but they're not chaos warriors os white lions, but can become great anyway with the proper magical aid (Hand of Glory and Wyssan's are the more commons, but any heavens or life buff will be welcome on them). So don't be afraid of giving them magical support.

- Saurus are slow, this means that they will hit after many enemies, so don't let the speed ruin your day, bring enough saurus in order to stay, if 1 survives, the enemy don't get a single victory point for them so big blocks are going to be better than small ones (I usually run a 35 saurus unit, and I've never lost them all)

- Saurus are saurus, they're not Temple Guards. Remember this if you don't want your unit to be blocked forever against a 1+ AS unit, with S4 you're really good at grinding infantry, not cavalry. Without a single buff, you'll hit most enemy's infantry with 4+, wound with 3/4+ and their saves won't be so great (5/6+), so you can bring enough death to make them useful (like always, don't forget magic if you can)

Probably the saurus are the unit in the book that looks better after every buff, support them to the victory.

You're right, they aren't White lions, or Chaos Warriors. They get out initiatived by everything and for what 11 points a model? But while all this is true the only stat Chaos Warriors have got on us is Initiative and at 14 points a bare naked model the only thing they've got on us is one stat but-naked we are three points cheaper with a higher starting armour save Cold-Blooded and Predatory Fighter they need to fully kit them out to make them so nasty at which point they're even MORE EXPENSIVE we actually off the mark have the Best Core Infantry we get it cheaper, and we get it nastier

Also as the quote says we can make it nastier with magic

 

[SilverFaith]

It's always about choosing your battles.

Sure, they wont stand up to elites - but then, no core will. White Lions will eat pretty much any core choice, because they aren't core - their power is on an entirely different level. they are limited. You could field an entire army of Saurus Warriors, but you don't because the other choices are better.

If the core outperformed the special and rare choices, you'd have a serious internal balancing problem.

Which is ironic, because saurus warriros aren't that much worse than temple guards. In close combat, they got +1 WS, +1 I(which is still laughably low) and +1s. Everything else is special rules which only matter if they escort a slann, and banner options.

 

[Kcibrihp-Esurc]

You know, I really want to try @Slanputin 's MSU Saurus, but my most regular opponents are Bretonnian Cav and Imperial Knight armies, both of which would punch through the small units.
However, they can't do much worse than every horde I've fielded, my most succesful horde was around fifty models, and just marched around the field the whole game. I find twenty five-ish does best for me.

 

[protector]

It's always about choosing your battles.

Sure, they wont stand up to elites - but then, no core will. White Lions will eat pretty much any core choice, because they aren't core - their power is on an entirely different level. they are limited. You could field an entire army of Saurus Warriors, but you don't because the other choices are better.

If the core outperformed the special and rare choices, you'd have a serious internal balancing problem.

Which is ironic, because saurus warriros aren't that much worse than temple guards. In close combat, they got +1 WS, +1 I(which is still laughably low) and +1s. Everything else is special rules which only matter if they escort a slann, and banner options.

Actually saurus can quite easily outperform special and rare, and they do on a very regular basis if fielded correctly. Run a unit of 40 saurus against white lions and see what happens, an equal amount of points saurus against white lions with saurus having over 35 models and the saurus win easily. The same is true for almost every other infantry out there, the problem is that with saurus basic stats lizardmen generals look at them and want to play them as elite units instead of the basic core they are. Field them in horde formations and roll over those stupid white lions, seriously it isn't even close.

Also I have multiple times fielded an entire army of saurus (3 times) all in competitive games and I have won every game, against WoC and twice against DE lists. The other choices are not better, they are just shiny and distracting, also most people do not have 200+ saurus like I do lol